My first reaction on hearing about the Texas raid was “Finally, the authorities have stopped ignoring the abuses committed by the polygamists!” Yet the more I hear about this story, the more reservations I have about it.
The state took several hundred children away from their parents and put them in foster care on the strength of one anonymous phone call? Now I know you’re thinking “Chanson, everybody knows these guys are forcing underage girls to marry creepy old geezers.” True, but “everybody knows” isn’t evidence. Michael Carr makes the following point:
Now you tell me, if you took a two block area in a rough area of an inner city, wouldn’t you find that the children living in that area would probably be suffering all sorts of abuse, addictions, and neglect? Yet you couldn’t simply take them away en masse and distribute them to foster care. You’d have to make this decision on a case by case basis and the mass raid itself would be illegal. How is that different than this case?
Taking children away from their families is a very serious matter, not to be taken lightly. Individual evidence should be present for every family affected. Granting the state (and, in fact, a competing religion) the license to round up all of the children of a given community — based on the parents’ ideology — is scary enough that it should give you pause even if you’re horrified by the polygamists’ practices.
Recall this famous quote attributed to H. L. Mencken:
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one’s time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
And in this case, if you’d like to see the scoundrels brought to justice, that’s all the more reason not to screw it up. This mess may well help the fundamentalists attract converts from within the mainstream LDS community. Remember Mormons thrive on “persecution” especially if they can reasonably claim it’s unfair or unjustified. All we need is for one television program to show a sweet FLDS mom pining for her kids and then cut to a shot of the same kids being taken by their new foster parents to a fiery “Joseph Smith was a fraud” sermon at a Baptist church, and a good portion of Utah will start thinking “Maybe these guys are the real true church after all…”
Already some voices in the Bloggernacle are tentatively starting to sympathize with them (see here, among other places). As bad as they are, there’s some legitimate claim of unfair treatment. Take a recent case in Wisconsin where a child died of a curable disease because the parents decided to pray instead of taking the child to a doctor. The only reason the parents might avoid a charge of criminal neglect is because the law has an exemption for the case where the neglect was (supposedly) obedience to God’s will. And the authorities didn’t remove the other three children from the house because they saw “no abuse or signs of abuse.”
So a child who is dead of criminal neglect isn’t sufficient evidence to take three kids into custody (if the perps are fundy Christians), but one anonymous phone call is enough to take a few hundred (if the perps are fundy Mormons…).
So what to do about the FLDS and other fundamentalist Mormon groups? Obviously we can’t just let them keep forcing teenage girls into marriages with their uncles.
I kind of lean towards improving public education (instead of scrapping and trashing the public education system further and further). This would give the kids some exposure to alternate ideas and give them the skills to make up their minds about what they’re being taught and to leave if they so choose. Additionally, legal recognition of polygamy might help since regulating it could curb abuses (especially underage marriages). And if taking another spouse were considered legal grounds for divorce (so one spouse automatically has the right to alimony, child support, and custody if the other chooses to take a new spouse), then we could test the FLDS claim that the women are there of their own free will. Those who would like to leave would be able to leave without forcing an alternate ideology on those that don’t.
This is a canard. It only reveals that Michael Carr believes that he is talking to an audience that is afraid of poor and Black people. There is no analogy between inner cities and FLDS parenting practices.
There is nothing inherently abusive about inner cities. Marrying off sixteen year old girls to old geezers and expelling twelve year old boys for watching a movie is abusive.
Rather than dealing with instances of abuse that one might find in one neighborhood or another (really in every neighborhood), the FLDS Church has institutionalized child abuse. Having listened to former FLDS members, I am pretty confident that the evidence will bear out that claim.
Unfortunately, I do not know Michael Carr for I would love to take him out to introduce him to working and underclass Americans, most of whom work a lot harder than me and most of us. In the meanwhile, he might want to consider a vow of silence.
Hellmut, I think you’ve missed my point entirely. I’m not saying that deliberate abuse on the part of the FLDS can be equated with the harms that come of poverty. I’m saying that we should insist that the state have evidence before taking children away from their parents. Granting the government license to do a blanket abduction of all of the children of an entire community on the basis of the community’s ideology (religion) is incredibly dangerous.
Yes, these guys are scoundrels who should be brought to justice. But once the precedent is set, who’s next? Guarantees of rights and justice are necessary in order to ensure just treatment for bad guys as well as good guys. Bring them to justice correctly, not like this.
as ‘nice’ as it might be to cleanse society of this sore… Individual liberties still must be protected else we become a nation of totalitarians; we would all lose liberties sooner or later.
Hopefully even Sadly, this might be an example of how evil people twist ‘freedom’.
I actually agree with Guy.
Hellmut, I don’t think anyone is really trying to argue that there isn’t institutionalized abuse going in in the FLDS community down there. It seems rather likely to me.
But keep in mind that the true test of democracy is how we treat the unsympathetic cases. It’s easy to be in favor of rigorous search warrant procedures and all that when it’s some poor hardworking Hispanic guy who the police are just picking on because they don’t like Mexicans. It’s much harder to be gung ho about it when it’s a child rapist covering his sins. But it is the later that is the true test of whether we really believe in having a fair and objective legal system.
And keep in mind that we’ve had nightmare scenarios before on the child abuse situation. There was an epidemic in one small community where a couple of bratty pre-teen girls started making frivolous and ultimately untrue accusations against several men in the community. Ruined those men’s lives and poisoned the entire community.
Keep in mind that as soon as someone yells “child abuse” in our society half the people turn their brains off and go running for the nearest torch or pitchfork. I’d hope most of us here are above that.
That said… Chanson, I think the Texas DA has released further information that they had been in communication with the girl in question for a couple months and had independently verified a lot of what she was saying before they went for the search warrants. I hope that is the case, because it seems grossly inappropriate to raid a dozen families with Social Services agents on the basis of one “anonymous tip.”
However this turns out, it’s just going to be ugly. You’ve got dozens of mothers who have no employment skills and are going to end up on welfare rolls, hundreds of children who will end up in similar situations or in foster care (the foster care system is notorious for its own instances of child abuse by the way) and dads in prison. Ugly, ugly, ugly.
But if the situation in the compound was as bad as we all think it was, I guess it had to happen sooner or later.
And keep in mind that the guys were also raised in this system too. They are also victims of the abusive system.
I agree with most of what you say, Seth, and as I pointed out, I am not satisfied with the behavior of the Texas authorities. I do take exception with the notion, however, that there is any analogy between the family life of FLDS and poor and dark skinned parents.
Michael Carr’s clumsy attempt of an analogy strikes me as the typical self-righteous, self-congratulatory and arrogant tripe from white suburbia. There are any number of parents doing a remarkable job under difficult circumstances among America’s poor.
That’s true. However, it shouldn’t distract us from protecting this generation of children.
Seth – #4 In some polygamous communities, the mothers and children would have already been on welfare – for years. The term I’ve read is “bleeding the beast”.
This is a really difficult situation. I agree with GNPE that we have to protect individual liberties. On the other hand, there is a limit to what can be protected/tolerated.
We don’t know the entire situation right now – at least that’s my take. I’ve read some news reports – but I’m still not sure we have the entire picture. From either side. I’m on the fence. No, of course I’m not happy about children being taken away from their parents. I’ll write more later…
My two bits… I saw on one news site a bit from one of the social service supervisors that said that the raid, of course, was not necessarily willfully accepted – the leadership of the compound wasn’t for it. But, once it happened, there was a lot of cooperation. What’s more, the mothers were not forced to go with the children but went of their own accord and are free to go back at any time.
I agree with chanson’s main point that there better be damn good evidence for the raid (scoundrels or not), but I think we need to remember that most of what happened after the FBI and police showed up was voluntary.
Unfortunately, whether voluntary or not, it probably will end up backfiring just like Short Creek. Mike Nielsen did a good job explaining this for this French newspaper:
http://observers.france24.com/en/content/20080410-polygamous-sect-flds-mormon-ranch
Chanson, this was a good post, and I appreciate the solutions you have suggested. I especially agree that the fact that polygamy is illegal and that polygamists are persecuted drives them underground. It promotes all kinds of abuses and keeps their women and children from being able to leave freely. It is really strange that polygamy is illegal in this country, considering the sexual freedom and licentiousness that takes place in every other area. If it was made legal, law enforcement could concentrate on actual abuse on a case by case basis.
I think in this case the lack of evidence will allow for the return of all the children to the compound and in the end the FLDS will be more restrictive and secretive. Instead, authorities should be concentrating on ways to establish communication and support for those who might want to leave. Education is key here, as you mentioned. But I can’t see how these families will ever allow it, especially after what has happened.
Exactly. That’s one of the reasons we have the Bill of Rights.
I’m very wary of the attitude “Everybody knows these guys are so bad that they don’t deserve their constitutional rights.”
Seth, if you’re right that they had more extensive information to base this raid on than just one anonymous call, then the raid may well be reasonable and legitimate. OTOH, it seems like there ought to be individual probable cause to suspect each set of parents whose children are taken. It shouldn’t be enough to say “Some FLDS abuse their kids, and you’re FLDS, so we’re taking your kids.”
BiV — Exactly, very well put.
The way to deal with the abuse is to prosecute it while giving polygamists a legal way out.
If women freely choose to become second, third and fourth wives then the government ought to stay out of it. The problem is, of course, that people tend to be jealous, which makes it difficult to sustain polygamy in a free society.
In the FLDS case, the eternal family doctrine exacerbates the problem. The FLDS are not, after all, a group of like minded adults. Rather Mormon polygamists have to sustain the institution by transmitting polygamy across generations.
That model requires the coercion of young females. The number of young women who will accept polygamy in the presence of other options is just too small to sustain a polygamous society.
Polygamists understand that. That’s why they force young women into marriages with old men.
The government should provide the opportunity for the legitimate practice of polygamy. Essentially, that means that women must have the choice to reject marriage proposals and sue for divorce. To ensure that requires the constant vigilance of the government because the incentives of the polygamists to resort to coercion are considerable.
Exactly. And that would be one of the effects of legal recognition of polygamy.
On a related note, I seem to recall that one of Brigham Young’s wives wrote a memoir/exposé, and this very point was critical: She attempted to sue him for divorce and he countered that she couldn’t because she wasn’t legally married to him.
Am I remembering this right? Anybody have a link?
Chanson, though I’m outraged (but no surprised since anyone paying attention has know that this has been going on for a long, long time starting from within the LDS church) I’m also sympathetic to your point.
I don’t begin to comprehend the intricacies of law that must be at play here but imagine this kind of thing is not clear-cut at all and is the kind of case that pushes civil law off of its moorings. There’s certainly a strong cases to be made from either end of the individual rights/community rights spectrum. One thing seems certain to me: this case has the potential to drive the church/state separation debate to new heights.
Ever since this particular community moved to Texas and started building their temple I’ve been wondering which side the LDS church would end-up on … continuing the push for laws that more sharply define moral issues as suits the church even where it goes against the beliefs of others, or turning back to a defense of church/state separation even if it means defending the rights of faith organizations such as the FLDS to practice their child marriages.
It’s really an awkward situation for the church, I think, and profoundly ironic to have this coming out of the church’s own backyard and closet (to mix metaphors).
PS. one of the really difficult issues I see here is that it’s certainly not as simple as allowing the women and children to choose whether they will stay or go … not when there’s a clear case of religious brainwashing and its associated emotional manipulation and abuse. Of course acknowleging such things will also be difficult for LDS folks to do without somehow dealing with their own cognative dissonance on the subject. I expect to see a broad range of coping behaviors come out of this.
Matt — very good points. Actually (as I said at the very top) I think it’s positive that this is showing up on the international radar and people are talking about what should be done. And encouraging a range of debate on what’s to be done is what I’m shooting for. 😉
p.s. you mean “defending the rights of faith organizations such as the FLDS to practice their child marriages,” not RLDS. Want me to fix your comment?
Oh yes, please! 🙂
p.p.s: I don’t think there’s any chance the official organization in SLC will defend the polygamists. It looks like the only reason the Utah authorities tended to let them be was because every time the FLDS make the news, it’s bad publicity for the mainstream LDS. If the LDS church comments at all, it will be to distance themselves from the FLDS. OTOH, lots of individual Mormons will sympathize with the plight of the FLDS.
Yes, I agree. Further repudiation of its own past by proxy. Sweet is the cog-dis that drives us.
Depending on what the charges are – this incident may spark debate on two contraversial topics – 1 – statutory rape and 2 – the marriage laws.
I don’t know what the statutory rape age is in Texas, or if those laws are still being enforced. If some of the marriages taking place are among women under 18, and are not legal marriages, simply spiritual marriages…then the husbands could theoretically be prosecuted for statutory rape.
From my understanding, this is how some “legal” forms of polygamy take place – one man marries one woman, divorces her and marries another wife. But they still consider themselves spiritually married. Again – as I mentioned in my earlier comment – that’s one thing when this occurs among consenting adults. And some of our (U.S.) marriage laws are archaic. But it’s quite another when a woman is too young to make that decision.
So who decides what age is too young? How young is too young to get married? And who decides whether or not to enforce those statutory rape laws?
Bored in Vernal has a post on this worth reading:
http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2008/04/beds-and-temples.html
Aerin — I think you’re right that this will spark some useful debate on these controversial issues.
I know the statutory rape laws vary from state to state, but the one version I’ve heard seems fairly reasonable, to avoid adults taking advantage of children: sex is considered statutory rape if one of the two people is under 18 and there are more than two years of difference in age between them.
However, I find it a little disconcerting if marriage creates a loophole in this (eg. it’s legal for a 36-y-o guy to have sex with a 14-y-o girl if they get married). If she’s not old enough to consent to sex with the guy, then she certainly shouldn’t be considered old enough to consent to marry him. This law is clearly a throwback to the time when “consent” was really a question of whether the girl’s father consents…
Seth — Thanks for the link. I agree with BiV that their civil rights are being violated.
The BiV link in 23 was insightful. I noticed that BiV has posted some input from a former FLDS member there:
This contrasts pretty starkly with what the informant that the Texas CPS and Rangers have been referring to throughout this process has been telling the state authorities.
As I have expressed on a number of other blogs during this situation, I am very concerned about the approach Texas has taken to this problem. Removing over 400 children from their homes because one child called on outside organization and referred to the CPS and complained of abuse does not seem consistent with due process of law or with issues relating to the sufficiency of evidence for such action.
Having said that, I have also gone on record that, if it is indeed the intent and motivation of the Baptists involved in this whole scene to use this as an opportunity to convert these FLDS kids to the Baptist sect of creedal Christianity, then I must admit that this would ultimately be better for the children involved, as long as we are talking about mothers and children converting together and not the Baptist volunteers or foster parents imposing their religious views on the children. Of course, I am skeptical that a Jesus Camp future is much brighter for these kids than an FLDS future but at least they won’t face the possibility of an arranged or underaged marriage.
No matter what any of us thinks of the FLDS religion, we should all be concerned when the state takes such sweeping action based on such scanty evidence and with such a thin attempt at providing due process.
Right now it is the FLDS but do any of you want the State of Texas to make a substantive decision about your religious beliefs? If you happen to be a fundamentalist Baptist, this might be fine with you, but I can imagine any number of groups, whether religious or otherwise, who would not like the State of Texas to make a value judgment as to the adequacy of their belief system in raising children and on the basis of that judgment to take away the children and put them into whatever horror awaits them in the rural West Texas foster care system when given the slightest pretext for doing so.
I wish that the Texas authorities would have investigated the particular allegation of abuse made by the 16 year old caller and, if necessary, removed her and perhaps her siblings from their mother and father rather than taking all of the children from their parents, even with no evidence that the other children are being abused. I don’t see how this is reversable. Even if the kids go back to their mothers and all of them go back to the ranch, then at the very least, this will result in the solidification of the group’s resolve at secrecy and distrust of the “outside world” and could even justify to the kids themselves any rhetoric they hear going forward about how bad outside people and the government are.
I hope that the 16 year old who reported that her husband had abused her, if she is real, is discovered, treated, and relocated as necessary to protect her from abuse and that the perp is arrested and put in jail according to due process.
John F. — As I’ve said in a few places around the Internet, I agree with you on the constitutional aspects of this incident.
The one thing I’d add to what you’ve said is that it was totally inappropriate that they were taken into custody of/by another church. It doesn’t matter that the Southern Baptists have more mainstream beliefs — the state should not be in the business of saying “We don’t like your current religion, therefore we’ll impose a different one on you.” If the Southern Baptists were the only ones with the resources to perform the raid, then that’s a problem to be fixed, not a reason to throw up our hands and say “I guess we’ll just deputize the Southern Baptists to handle child protective services.”
As you point out, handing Texas (and its majority religion) this power is a pretty scary thing. As far as the (alleged) crimes of the FLDS are concerned, they can be handled legally without trampling their constitutional protections. For 200 years the Bill of Rights has been helping us walk the fine line between protecting citizens from criminals and protecting citizens from being falsely accused and unfairly punished. As horrifying as underage marriage is, this can and should be handled legally instead of using this as an excuse to create a dangerously unconstitutional precedent.
p.s. to clarify: I don’t have a problem with individuals of other religions participating in child protective services in their capacity as state employees. I object to the institutional participation of another religion (the fact that they were taken in church buses and any other administrative aspects of this incident that were handed over to religious organizations).
You know, I have to wonder…
What were these guys thinking – camping out in Southern Baptist country like that? Seems like a really bad judgment call to me.
Seth, when the FLDS rolled into the area, the legal age for marriage was 14. If I understand correctly, the age was raised to 16 after the FLDS arrived. Apparently, 14 was respectable where fundamentalist Baptists were concerned but not FLDS. In my opinion, 14 is a little low even for fundamentalist Baptists in rural West Texas.
The testimonial that John posted is interesting. Carolyn Jessop, of course, contradicts these claims and reports systemic abuse and coercion. To some degree, convictions in court confirm Jessop’s claims.
It is a common fallacy that nice people cannot possibly be abusive or be implicated in abuse. Hannah Arendt coined the term banality of evil. She meant that the perpetrators of evil may very well be good fathers, husbands, and neighbors.
I am sure that many polygamists are nice people. I also know nice drug dealers, gang bangers and worse. As a German, I also had the dubious pleasure to meet nice Stasi and SS officers.
The point is not that polygamists are like drug dealers and political criminals. The point is that otherwise nice and virtuous people commit evil.
In fact, insofar as virtue leads to competence, virtuous people are more effective perpetrators of evil.
As usual, I would like to remind readers of Adam Smith’s dictum that “Virtue is more to be feared than vice, because its excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience.”
That’s the problem with evil. The perpetrators of evil are not monsters but they are people like us.
Hellmut — I agree, and for my part, I don’t sympathize with the FLDS nor do I think that their (apparent) virtue and niceness should be considered a mitigating factor. My point is that we shouldn’t waive their constitutional rights and protections just because it looks probable that they’re criminals. The Bill of Rights applies even to people who are eventually found guilty.
Don’ worry, Chanson, I was just referring narrowly to the testimonial.
Thankfully, constitutional rights aren’t predicated on whether someone is nice or not.
I obviously haven’t been following the news reports close enough because I wasn’t aware of the Southern Baptist’s involvement. It should be noted, however, that this is rather typical of the whole privatization of government institutions movement where gov’t is gutted and then its former work contracted out to willing organizations such as churches and businesses.
Fascinating that we have so many dynamics at play here. Not just civil rights and church/state separation issues but these compounded by this new trend of privatizing government. When you do this, it can no longer be clearly said the the actions of contractors are the actions of government and the whole ”constitutionality” and legal question becomes muddled and susceptible to circumventing. Case in point: Iraq.
What a joyous time of convolution we live in.
BTW, I was only somewhat sympathetic with the plea from the former FLDS individual and found it at least as biased as some of the reports coming from the the news media.
I think we need to focus an the larger issue here … it’s not simply that civil rights may have been violated but the new and grotesque manner in which it has been done which I fear will lead to the inability to correct the problem and further, more dramatic violations.
Government was meant to be an independent and secular facility, a place for all the governed to seek protection and redress … but what happens when this government becomes increasingly privatized? You may get the children of Mormon Fundamentalists loaded on Southern Baptist busses and shuttled-off for counseling.
Of course not, John. However, there is reason to believe that the witness is jumping to conclusions.
Matt — exactly. If the government needs to turn to a church organization to carry out its law enforcement duties, then that’s a problem to be fixed, not a reason to say “C’est la vie, I guess we have no choice but to accept that the Southern Baptist Council is an official branch of law enforcement now.”
This is one of the reasons I favor Obama. I don’t know if he’s made a statement on this particular question, but he essentially stands for turning around the Reaganite self-fulfilling prophecy that government is and must be totally incompetent. If you expect incompetence, you’ll get it.
Yeah, and this is such a classic case of change agents moving in to capitalize on a case where resisting change could easily be played as being pro-pedophilia, or pro-terrorism (in the case of post-911, Iraq, blah, blah, blah), etc.
As much as I like the idea of where I think Obama would stand on this issue, it could be political suicide to address it. I’d be very surprised if he says anything much less any other political leader.
This kind of thing is a perfect storm for those who want to undermine our secular government.
You may get the children of Mormon Fundamentalists loaded on Southern Baptist busses and shuttled-off for counseling.
It sounds like they’ve been bused off for much more than counseling. It looks from today’s various news reports that the intention is to separate them from their mothers and scatter them into the foster care system of the State of Texas, likely to Baptist families eager to get an easy chance at a convert.
The former FLDS who emailed BiV has described the inner-workings of the FLDS one way and the former FLDS who is an informant for Texas CPS appears to have described life in the FLDS another way. Naturally, both are biased but it is interesting to note that neither is currently a member of the FLDS.
If it’s any consolation (and I’m sure it isn’t), getting the chance to grow-up in a “normal” Baptist family will be a soul-saving experience. Kinda like when native american children were parsed out to LDS homes.
Or Australian bushman children.
I agree with you, Chanson, that the Constitution guarantees rights even to the bad guys. Moreover, it’s always refreshing to see someone stand up for principle. Thank you!
Matt, my thought is that unless a child is being abused by its parents, the foster care system is not one of the best places for a child to end up.
That’s definitely true. The foster care system is atrocious.
It seems to me that the Texas authorities are making things up as they are going along. That’s no way to take care of several hundred children. More importantly, the modus operandi is incompatible with the rule of law.
The biggest problem will be that the authorities might go to any length to save face. It’s time for the Justice Department to step in. They can at least dispatch observers.
I am very skeptical of the claim that FLDS members can leave at any time of their own free will. Leaving the LDS faith was difficult enough, and I didn’t have the host of issues that could arise from being raised in a very insular, closed community.
I do not know a great deal about the community or about what’s going on as I stated previously. It could be that the community is open and allows members (including women) to come and go as they please.
Hellmut brought up Flora (Carolyn?) Jessop’s accounts and experiences. I think that those are a piece to the puzzle here. I haven’t read her work but I know a little about her story. Of course, her story is just one among many. I’m sure there is a wide range of FLDS experiences (just as there is for former and current LDS).
Also in response to the post from BIV – I think part of this conversation as a free and open society – when does a person become an adult? At what age should they be able to decide that they can get married?
Is a fourteen year old really fully prepared to be a wife and mother? I certainly wasn’t ready at 14. I know there is a tremendous debate about teenage motherhood – with everything else that’s being discussed – I’ve also read studies that there is just as high an incidence of developmental problems for children born to very young (12 – 14) mothers as mothers over 40.
Now – with this said, do I really feel that 400+ children should have been taken away from their families? I can’t say. Are there really horrible allegations of abuse for all 400? I can’t say what happened exactly or who should have rights at this point.
I agree the Justice dept. should step in.
I too am concerned that individual church members (Baptist) were deputized to become CPS workers. That’s not right either.
There is this balance between individual liberties, family liberty and protection of children. These waters are very difficult to tread. In the US, we almost always side with the individual – sometimes to the detriment of what’s going on.
Last year there was a murder of a three year old girl by her birth mother – she had been in foster care but was returned to her birth mother for the holidays. Her foster mother repeatedly warned the case workers and others that it was not safe for the daughter to be with her mother. Many were shocked and a flurry of letters to the editor were written. But the truth of the matter is – the US system believes and is founded that the birth parents are always the best place for a child. Whether or not that is the case.
I did see that many lawyers have stepped up for these families to make sure that the process (at this point) is as fair as possible.
I wish that every allegation of abuse, every child who needs to go into foster care, etc. had this much media attention. All children deserve a safe and happy home.
I think there is only one specific allegation of abuse here — that of the anonymous 16 year old caller whom the authorities have not located. I don’t believe there were allegations of abuse as to the other 400+, except that they were “at risk” of being put into an arranged marriage. Besides the specific allegation of abuse of a 16 year old girl, there is four year’s worth of information that has been provided to the local sherrif from a former FLDS member.
It seems to be an established fact that some arranged marriages have occurred in FLDS communities. The extent to which there have been underaged arranged marriages appears to be in dispute and certainly could not rise to the level of sufficiency to justify removing all of the children in an entire religious group following the specific allegations of abuse against herself by one anonymous caller.
Aerin — I absolutely think that pressuring or forcing fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, and even seventeen year old girls into marriage is wrong and should be illegal. That’s not the question. If they’re forcing girls into underage marriages, they should be stopped from doing it — no one here has said otherwise.
The point is that even if you think the authorities should do something, that doesn’t mean they should do something illegal. The evidence doesn’t justify taking small children away from their mothers, and the fact that there’s an abuse claim against some members of a community doesn’t justify taking kids away from other people just because they share the same religion with someone who is suspected of abuse.
Do I believe them that anybody in the community can leave whenever they want? No, I don’t. The mere fact that the kids are so isolated from mainstream society means that many don’t have the ability (skills) to leave whether or not they’re physically forced to stay. But I think this action is extremely counterproductive if the goal is to build up lines of communication and interaction with the outside world that would allow the authorities to prevent specific cases of abuse that occur within the FLDS community and help those who want to leave to have the ability to do so.
I think it’s exceptionally naïve to think that we have anything CLOSE to the whole story, as given to us by the media, and to make any judgements about the legality of the case from what we do know. There is no compelling reason for prosecutors to lay out their case against the FLDS leaders, and plenty of reasons not to do so, the most obvious and large being that presenting all of their evidence to the media ruins their chances of running a fair trial. The FLDS being charged would have time to create counter-excuses and stories for every testimonial that can be given, and it would make finding an unbiased jury even more difficult than it will be already. I find the fact that so many are willing to believe that the law enforcement were really willing to just go into the compound on a single anonymous tip to be startling and disheartening. Why would they possibly do this if they didn’t have the evidence to back it up? They’ve known what goes on in El Dorado for years, but have waited until now to act. They must finally have had enough clear evidence that they think they can successfully prosecute and convict.
Do I think the Baptist church should be involved? Of course not. But I also think that individuals should have the right to volunteer to take kids in regardless of their faith. The comments here seem to imply otherwise, and that makes me just as nervous as taking kids away from their moms because of THEIR faith makes me nervous.
Patience — Regarding your last paragraph, see comment #27.
If it turns out that the police really did have sufficient probable cause to suspect all of these parents of abusing their children, then good. This case is far from done, and we’ll see what comes next. For the moment, however, I can only go with what has been reported, and the raid (as it was reported) was quite illegal, and I will protest it until they can demonstrate that it wasn’t.
It may well be that we don’t know the whole story. However, it looks like the same scare tactics that got us the Patriot Act: distract people with a scary enough bad guy and they’re like “Constitution? What Constitution? Let’s get ’em!!!”
Patience… That is a good point. It may very well be the case that the authorities who directed the raid do have good evidence of abuse. It just came out today that the young boys taken from the ranch are going into the foster care system and not going back to the ranch.
Maybe this is the predominantly Baptist community in rural Texas attacking a cult-like group. But it could also be a well-researched case of abuse. It’s good to raise questions and be skeptical, but until all the evidence is out (probably in court), it will be hard to say one way or another.
Ergo, patience… 🙂
Hellmut This is a canard.
Ok. Check out the statistics at an inner city maternity ward.
Numbers are all public.
Except, this is not supposed to be a prosecution, but an action in the interest of a child. As a result, the state is required to lay out the case.
BTW, the entire matter reminds me of a child custody case where the state was rescuing a child from being raised by atheists.
Good to see you, Stephen.
I probably should have acknowledged Matt’s courage in speaking out for an unpopular minority. His statement about parenting in inner cities, however, is arrogant, condescending and riddled with ethnocentric stereotypes of people who look different than him.
There are any number of factors that challenge parenting in inner cities, some of which indict us more than many of the wonderful parents who are performing admirably.
Lack of access to education, health insurance, and opportunity are probably just as much to blame as parental failure.
Another major factor is the absence of consumer protection that exposes tens of thousands of children to lead poisoning.
If an expecting mother imbibes harmful substances, by all means, there ought to be an intervention to protect the interests of the child. Just be sure to include happy pills in Sandy as well as crack in inner cities.
Matt is just plain wrong. There is no systematic factor that would allow for an analogy between inner city and FLDS parents. It is well documented that the latter routinely abandon their sons and impregnate their minor girls for religious reasons.
That does not give the Texas authorities license to cut corners but there is plenty of reason to step in to protect the children.
Very true, and this highlights one of the most disturbing aspects of the whole incident. I don’t think I’m going out on a limb to say that in general it’s in the best interests of a child to leave him/her with his/her parents unles you have some reason to believe there is abuse going on. In this case — as far as anything that’s been reported is concerned — the only abuse the FLDS are even suspected of is forcing teenage girls to marry older men, but they have no reason to believe the FLDS are abusing children under ten. So why were children under ten taken from their parents? What are they supposedly being protected from? Getting taught wrong ideas about families?
I hadn’t heard about a case of atheist parents getting their kids taken away, but if the majority religion is now allowed to protect kids from being taught unpopular ideas by their parents, anything is possible. Still, I think it’s unlikely that the state could do a mass raid-and-foster-care for atheist kids for a few reasons: (1) atheists are randomly spready throughout society, so it’s tricky to find them all and round them up (2) atheists on average tend to be highly educated (and already members of the ACLU 😉 ) so they’d have an easier time contesting it.
Still, even if the “inner city” example is a canard, here’s one that’s not: One could easily argue that the doctrine of celebate priests inherently creates a class of sexual predators who are placed in positions of authority over children (in much the same way that the doctrine of polygamy is supposed to inherently lead to abuse). Since Catholic bishops acted to hush up abuse accusations and protect accused priests (and lay Catholic parents have stood by the church), one could easily argue that child abuse is an institutional part of Catholicism and that every Catholic child is potentially in danger and should be placed in foster care until their parents have been cleared by the court system.
I hesitate to write the above because I know somebody is going to swing by, read that paragraph only, and accuse me of being “bigoted against Catholics.” I’m not — my husband is a cultural Catholic from a very Catholic family, and I largely identify with a highly Catholic culture (France). Please see the topic of Catholicism on my blog.
That said, I’m completely serious about the above comparison. I don’t mean it as a rhetorical game. The one thing that protects Catholics from being the next target of this precedent is their numbers (which means that this precedent doesn’t represent equal treatment under the law). If all of the Catholics in Texas lived in one tiny town (surrounded by Evangelicals and fans of Chick publications), and the authorities heard some reports of abuse taking place and being covered up, that town would be in real danger of being next on the list.
So in short — as much as I don’t think highly of the FLDS or their lifestyle — I also don’t favor granting the state this dangerous new power.
Hi Chanson,
I agree with your catholic analogy, and it is particularly appropriate given the apparent “systemic” pedophilia problem within the catholic clergy.
(FWIW, I thought your inner city one was fine too. Those parents are not doing enough to shield their children from drugs, gangs, etc, so something must be done about their systemic inner-city neglect – referred to from here on out as SIN 🙂 )
One thing that will continue to bother me about this story is that CPS seems to be given latitude “outside” of normal legal procedure, and because of this they have the potential to be far more abusive because of less checks and balances.
Froggie
Froggie — Exactly. I’m shocked by how many people are willing to say “yeah, but these guys are really, really weird” or “but they’re a cult!” to justify ignoring the checks on legal procedure that have been the right of every citizen (even people most consider bad guys) for more than 200 years.
It’s not just a “slippery slope” — it creates a very real legal precedent for taking kids away from parents in the absence of probable cause to justify it.
Alot of people accuse the FLDS of being guilty of something just because they live in a secluded “compound” but on the other hand nobody seems to mind that cps is keeping these prisoners in isolation where the news media is unable to interview them and confiscating their cell phones.
If cps has nothing to hide why not install webcams and let the world see people living in concentration camp conditions with screaming children being yanked from their mothers arms. What do they have to hide ? the truth ?
People are so quick to believe that these “rescued” people are happily living in paradise. Sounds just like the Nazi propaganda where they told everyone that “the Jews are being located to the east” the forgot to mention that this meant a one way trip to Auschwitz and being sent to gas chamber or worked to death and then being tossed into a large mass grave in the ground. Never never trust anything governments say.
Ever wonder why in a country with thousands of people homeless and children going to bed hungry and unable to get health care that they would need to “rescue” this particular set of children who lived in nice log cabins and ate fresh farm raised food and had several mothers doting on them and get this free medical care from a resident doctor.. here is the answer … RELIGIOUS HATE CRIME
I don’t really think anyone believes that the “rescued” people are “happy living in paradise.” Methinks most people realize that detainment and government custody is no picnic.
Katie, there is evidence of child abuse. Several FLDS leaders, including Warren Jeffs, have been sentenced for participating in child rape.
We also know that over three hundred boys were abandoned at the side of the road. That’s child neglect, which is a crime.
Who else is supposed to protect those children if not the government?
Ok warren Jeffs at least got some sort of trial and now he is in jail. Do you have any proof that these particular mothers abandoned or were planning to abandon their sons ? This is unfair stereo typing.
It is unconstitutional to punish someone for someone elses crime.
The government could care less about protecting anyone. Ever hear of Katrina when the heroic government left thousands of people to die ? And then scattered them recklessly around the country separated from their families and then cut off their aid. Did you know that thousands of American citizens are currently homeless and hungry ? Does the government help them like it should ? Do you know that your tax dollars are being used to take innocent children from their families for profit ? It is all part of that “Welfare Reform”. States get money when children are adopted. There is the financial motivation.
I could go on and on about things the govt doesn’t do. Like keeping poisonous chemicals out of children’s toys for instance.
IF they had bothered to investigate the call and IF the call was real instead of a prank call. Then MAYBE they could have gone in there and tried to see if anyone was being held prisoner. If the person was in such trouble why on earth didn’t she call 911 and get rescued right away ?
If someone is genuinely being abused of course they should be rescued. NOT KIDNAPPED with a SWAT TEAM. These women are free to come and go as they please they have their own cars and cell phones.
Seriously I don’t think nursing infants need to be rescued from their mothers milk do you ?
When I think of someone being “rescued” a vision of a starving person chained to the wall of a dungeon with whip marks all over them comes to mind. The liberation of Auschwitz was a rescue. Notice the difference ? No prisoners crying and clinging to guards begging not to be taken away.
Who is going to rescue these unfortunate children from their “rescuers” ?
This is a Religious Hate crime pure and simple. Not only that, it is down right absurd to worry about polygamy in this day and age when people are so promiscuous and every big city has 13 year old girls who are prostitutes working the streets.
Katie — I didn’t reply to your comment earlier because I hesitate to compare this to the Nazis and call it genocide. At the same time, I also hesitate to follow the common wisdom that would say that it’s absurd to compare anything to the Nazis because they were so superhumanly evil that no human behavior is on the same plane with them. That kind of thinking prevents us from learning from what happened back then. We should be learning a cautionary tale of what kind of evil can be done by people who honestly think they’re no more than decent folks acting to preserve their way of life.
In the case of the FLDS, it is very likely that some abuse is occurring. However, the evidence used to justify the raid was fake, and the evidence (illegally) collected by the raid — while suggestive and consistent with a theory of abuse — is not even close to being proof of abuse (as I said on another blog thread, I defy you to find a town in Texas where a raid wouldn’t turn up pregnant teens and a hair on a bed). Worst of all, they don’t even claim to have a suspicion of abuse against small children, yet small children were taken en masse from their mothers. This action is not remotely consistent with a picture of friendly police force who sees the FLDS as citizens yet wants to stop what abuse exists in their community. This action is an example of using a suspicion of abuse as a justification to wipe out a whole community. And decent folk all over are praising the action because everybody knows those FLDS are just that bad that they don’t deserve the kind of due process that other citizens get. This is exactly the sort of situation and mentality that we the people should be very, very wary of.
This situation is only the tip of the ice berg apparently CPS has been kidnapping children from perfectly good parents motivated profit for many years in other states too. Hopefully this will lead to and end to all of these child snatching fanatics. They got too greedy this time and now everyone is noticing.
Well I don’t know anything about the CPS in general, but if this sheds light on other abuses, that’s potentially a good thing. As others have pointed out on this thread, CPS and the foster care system have their problems and leaving children with parents suspected of abuse is also quite dangerous. So it’s a complicated question that shouldn’t be treated with a simple “always leave kids with the parents” or “always take them on the slightest suspicion.” Hopefully a high-profile case such as this one will ultimately result in improving this agency and correcting its problems.
“At the same time, I also hesitate to follow the common wisdom that would say that it’s absurd to compare anything to the Nazis because they were so superhumanly evil that no human behavior is on the same plane with them.”
Chanson, while I think calling Texas CPS “Nazis” is a bit overwrought, I object to this line of thought generally.
This basically removes the Nazis from the same plane as the rest of humanity, isolates them in their own little corner of history and makes it so that we can never learn anything from them.
Because the Nazis are “freakish aberrations” they couldn’t possibly have anything to do with us, or anything we are doing right?
Not at all.
The Nazis were not “monsters.” They were people. Ordinary people – like you and me. And we could EASILY be repeating their crimes, given the opportunity.
In fact, the more we resign Hitler to the realm of myth and legend – with no practical application to anyone or anything we know, the more likely another Hitler is to arise.
Those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it.
Automatically dismissing anyone who makes the “Nazi” analogy as inherently overwrought, is a great way for real Nazis to re-emerge in our own society. It basically takes the lessons of World War II off the table and we are no longer “allowed” to discuss them – because they’re irrelevant to us, right?
You know… it’s Sunday nap time for uncle Seth.
I think I just managed to completely misread your post Chanson. Correct?
Seth — I wouldn’t say you misread my comment, unless you were thinking that your comment disagrees with mine… 😉
I have looked at a few other blogs and I’m sorry to say that Nazi type people are alive and well. There are people ranting in there about Evil Mormon Pedophiles raping children but when asked them if statutory rape is such a big problem why not pregnancy test every single teenage girl in country and prosecute all “child rapists” and confiscate all “endangered” children from their families ? Their response was to continue ranting about evil old men and young girls.
I assure you they could care less about the well being of the young girls than their jealousy over old men having many wives.
These type of people would like to go out and kill every Mormon if they could based on rumors and stereotypes with no evidence to back them up. This is a scary thing.
They see nothing wrong with taking innocent little children from loving homes and sending them to this …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VEhdOOOzZg
I have do doubts that more children are killed and injured by foster parents than the would have been by their own parents.
I plan to have children someday and
if faced with a choice between some stupid parent occasionally killing/abusing their child and EVERY child in the country being put in danger of being kidnapped, drugged, abused and sold by these child snatching fanatics. The answer is self evident.
A Nazi by any other name is just as dangerous ….
Katie, you are fundamentally confused about what is happening. The Texas authorities have not punished anybody. They have taken steps to protect children from further abuse.
There is evidence of systematic child abuse in FLDS society. That abuse includes the abandoning of boys and the rape and impregnation of girls.
There are also indications that children of unbelievers have been kidnapped.
Notice this is a preliminary measure that will be reviewed by courts and the state has the burden of proof.
You do not understand the actions of Texas Child Protective Services because you are confusing punishment and criminal law standards with the obligation of the government to protect defenseless children.
The children were not removed to punish the parents but to protect them from parents who have exposed them to danger.
That’s an empirical question. The observable fact is that most celibate priests are not child abusers.
It certainly is a fact that the Catholic Church has failed to protect children and to rectify the situation once the abuse had been reported. It’s an institutional failure.
In the case of the FLDS, however, the abuse is institutionalized. In Catholicism, raping a child is an abuse. In fundamentalist Mormonism, raping a child can be a virtue.
Besides, most Catholic parents could not care less what their bishops say and do. There would be a an analogy if Catholic bishops demanded that parents provide their children so that priests can satisfy their sexual appetites AND
if Catholic parents acted on the instructions of their bishops.
Catholics fulfill neither condition. Orthodox Catholicism does not require child abuse. Fundamentalist Mormonism does. That’s the difference.
Nazis have nothing to do with Texas CPS. If the Nazis had seized the children, then the government would not have to answer for its actions in court.
Katie, every girl in the country will be tested for pregnancy if there is cause to believe that she might have been impregnated by an adult.
The FLDS have given the government of Texas cause to suspect child abuse. I agree with you that the government should not conduct such tests without reason. That’s why we do not test every girl for pregnancy.
You are too generous when you discount the considerable body of evidence against the FLDS. Four hundred abandoned boys is a lot more than nothing. Seventeen pregnant teenagers is a lot more than nothing. Convictions in court are the best evidence available to mortals.
We also have eye witness evidence that babies and toddlers are savagely beaten by FLDS fathers and sister mothers.
There is enough evidence to support the suspicion that the children are in danger. Should it turn out that those suspicions cannot be verified in court then the children will be returned.
How is having their mothers taken away NOT punishment ? the mothers and children are suffering horribly. It would have been less painful to them to rip out their fingernails than do this…
The constitution says that it is not legal to arrest people and do all these horrible things to them. The constitution doesn’t say if someone is under 18 they have no rights so cart em off and put them in storage until you can figure out what to do with them. I bet some of these little kids will die because of this trauma and the others will be messed up for the rest of their lives. Several of the children cant be accounted for, I worry if they are still alive.
What Hitler did was not “illegal” either, in fact it was illegal NOT to help kill the people he wanted killed. Another tidbit of information.. did you know that there was once an American Nazi party that wanted to join hitler ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_Bund
Alot of the so called “evidence” is given by a former FLDS member who is trying to get revenge for whatever wrongs she thinks she suffered AND Sell her book! There is no evidence that the particular mothers and children being cruelly punished without due process did any of these things to her. Who is to say that she is not telling outright sensationalist lies to sell her book ?
Waterboarding a baby ? come on why would people who want to have as many children as possible drown babies.
Did you ever wonder why witches who could ride broomsticks never rode them to escape the people who were coming to burn them at the stake ?
I’ve heard that some of the children at the ranch were there without their parents but at least their parents knew where they were being raised with relatives on a nice ranch.
None of these parents complained the complaint was made by a person who had never even been to the ranch and now all these children and parents are in agony. For what ?
I could care less about pregnant teenagers but I DO care when I see unarmed defenseless people having their children stolen by an army of commandos and people from another religion and then sent off to a Gulag.
This stinks to high heaven. I hope all these People that did this are arrested and prosecuted. I’m starting to think the whole trial of Warren Jeffs was a politically motivated prosecution. He didn’t even actually rape anyone. Real rapists rape all the time and never get on the FBI most wanted list.
If statutory rape is not a real enough problem to go to every high school and test every teenage girl then why would this not be religious persecution ? There are plenty of non FLDS parents who throw their teenagers out of the house. There are plenty of non FLDS parents who do incest and allow their daughters to get into situations where they will be date raped. Or is Rape ok as long as the rapist is the same age as the victim ? and not married to her ….
Again, Katie, you are applying criminal law standards, which are not appropriate. If we followed your line of reasoning then the government would have to leave children in the power of child rapists until there is a conviction in court.
No liberal democracy handles child protection this way.
Katie, do you know what waterboarding is? Waterboarding is not drowning. You keep sounding off about matters, which you do not understand.
FLDS fathers waterboard babies and toddlers to break their will so that the little ones will accept the domination of their fathers.
Lets not get hysterical, Katie. The Texas foster care system is nothing like a gulag.
My relatives have been tortured and starved in a real gulag and I find it troubling that you would make light of their suffering. My great-grandparents and my grandfather would have gladly traded their spots in the gulag with a place in the Texas child care system.
Your attitude with respect to the sexual exploitation of children is downright shocking. If you find it appropriate that adults impregnate minors then I am beginning to understand why you are so afraid of child protective services.
People have drowned quite often from waterboarding. I dont think a toddler is even rational enough to understand such things. Should we install Cameras into every home in the country to see who is doing what to their children in all fairness ? Equal protection under the law. I’m sure many parents are doing horrible things to their children right now and don’t forget emotional abuse which is perfectly legal and just as devastating.
I just looked at the lost boys thing and what puzzles me is why the FLDS don’t just recruit more women to join them it would be much better for them than fighting over women they have. If the boys are really trouble makers I can understand kicking them out but if it was done because of shortage of women kicking out loyal members seems down right foolish and counter productive.
Wrong again, Katie. What Hitler did was illegal. The Holocaust was illegal. Starting World War II was illegal. Killing civilians in retribution was a violation of international law.
Courts found hundreds of Hitler’s helpers guilty. Many Nazis were found guilty by German courts who relied exclusively on German laws that were on the book during Hitler’s reign.
Yes but they were not illegal under HIS laws. Alot of things people do in this country would be illegal in other countries. Drinking and letting women drive come to mind. The only laws that matter are the ones that are enforced and lately the Constitution which is supposed to be “The supreme law of the land” is not being enforced. Which is really unfortunate.
I am sure that there are thousands of women in the United States who would volunteer to share their husbands with other women.
Since healthy women are naturally jealous and would prefer a partner of their own age rather than having to copulate with an old geezer, coercion is essential to maintain a polygamist society.
Parents do not get to kick out boys just because they are “troublemakers.” Becoming a parent entails the responsibility to nurture children until they are old enough to take care of themselves.
That includes having to deal with teenagers who will be difficult from time to time. Every baby will become a teenager. Therefore every parent who has a baby also incurs the obligation to take care of teenagers.
If people don’t want to deal with teenagers, they should have thought about that before they had babies.
And parents do get into trouble with child protective services over these issues every day.
The FLDS do enjoy equal protection under the law. The actions of the CPS are subject to court review.
If CPS acted inappropriately then FLDS parents can sue the state of Texas, its officers, and its services in court.
Even if they can sue CPS that wont undo all the damage of having post traumatic stress for the rest of their lives.
I think most women are jealous because of the socialization of American society which makes women compete with each other over men. A man cant have a new wife without dumping the previous wife. Alot of men have secret mistresses of course.
I personally wouldn’t mind polygamy as long as I could choose the other wives.
Also if only certain religious groups or Minorities are every investigated for crimes while most people are ignored that is not equal protection of the law it is called selective prosecution.
It is like those laws that make crack cocaine smoked by poor people more illegal than powder cocaine used by rich white people with the desired result of sending alot of black people to prison.
No, Katie, the Holocaust was illegal under German law during Hitler’s reign because murder was a crime. Mistreating prisoners of war was illegal under German law during Hitler’s reign because Germany was party to the Treaty of the Hague. Most of the Nazi atrocities can be prosecuted under laws that were on the book during Hitler’s reign.
You don’t need to believe me. Spend some time in the library. The case of Emanuel Schäfer might be a good point of departure for your research. Schäfer was sentenced for murder by a German court, because murder remained a criminal act even during the Hitler dictatorship.
Murder of people was a crime sure but what Hitler did was reduce Jews to non persons non citizens. You know what I dont even blame hitler for what happened. He only encouraged people to do what they already wanted to do anyway.
Women are naturally jealous, Katie. So are men. You might want to read The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins, which explores among other things the biological foundations of jealousy.
Ive heard of that book. But you are forgetting women and men are different. Many women can share one man and pass along their genes but many men cant share one woman and pass along their genes
the FLDS situation reminded me of a group of lionesses sharing the duties of caring for the cubs which is a much better support system than contemporary american society that leaves kids home alone parked in front of the television
I agree that people do have the selfish gene and this means that these kids are much safer being raised by people who are genetically related to them who have an evolutionary stake to make sure they thrive…
Normally, I would agree with you, Kate. Unfortunately, that is impossible because we are dealing with parents who are facilitating the rape of their underage daughters.
Hellmut — If you want to convince me this is not like the Nazis, the absolute last way to do it is by saying “It’s different because the FLDS are so bad! No, really, they’re just that bad that we can’t be bound by normal people’s rules when dealing with them!” The way to convince me would be by saying “We’re not like the Nazis because we will follow Constitutional due process and any FLDS person accused of a crime will be given a fair trial just like any other citizen.”
If they’re that dangerous of criminals (very possible), and if there exists overwhelming evidence out there somewhere to prove it, then that’s just all the more reason that the authorities had absolutely no excuse to screw it up this badly!!!
If what has been reported in the news is correct, then this raid was so totally illegal that (if there’s a functioning court system at any level in the U.S.), the case will be thrown out, which means that in all likelihood dangerous people will go free. And when that happens, I don’t want to hear anyone complaining about that pesky old Constitution and how inconvenient it is for the cops to have to follow it when putting away the bad guys. If criminals go free in this case, it will be entirely the fault of the people who chose to plan and execute this raid in an illegal and unconstitutional manner. They should be loudly and unequivocally denounced for it by everyone who wants to see justice served.
Regarding putting the kids in foster care: If we grant that there exist cases where kids need to be removed from parents for their own safety, a bare minimum for this has to be an actual suspicion that the child is in danger of harm or abuse. Maybe popular opinion is right that these guys really are evil and dangerous, but the courts need evidence. In every case. No exceptions, period.
I’m sorry to say but we are like the Nazis.
Hate crimes have now been perpetrated against Mormons in other places that are encouraged by this hate crime of taking children away from their families. Think Krystalnacht. The holocaust was a historical event that I had hoped would never be repeated.
I am starting to question why Jeffs was prosecuted when the alleged 19 year old rapist was not. I think Jeffs was brought down for political reasons not because of what he did legally. He was too powerful of a leader and I agree he did some very unplesant things to his people. I don’t condone forcing young girls to be married against their will BUT I am starting to wonder why people who think it is funny to rip crying babies out of their mothers arms would care ? As a matter of fact these religious zealot do gooders have caused women and girls to have metal instruments forcibly inserted into their body cavities. Which is also called “rape with a foreign object”. Religious persecution at its finest.
These children being taken out of danger and put in a safe place is about as true as Hitler caring about the health and cleanliness of Jews and building them nice showers to bathe in.
Lets get this straight for once and for all, the government doesn’t care about the well being of children or adults it never has.
Watch this movie it will explain alot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHJ2joOSSGw&feature=PlayList&p=97FE328F1F080027&index=0&playnext=1
Another thing I’d like to add is that they were not having sex with children. I’m sorry but a 14 year old girl is a young adult not a child. This has been true since the recorded history of man. Statutory rape laws are stupid, unconstitutional and don’t stop anyone from having sex. The only purpose of them is to use as a tool to selectively prosecute Mormons while the other 99.9% of “offenders” go happily on their way.
Marriage laws that don’t let pregnant girls get married are a violation of their constitutional rights to practice their religion among other things. Laws against polygamy are Unconstitutional for the same reason. It is nobody’s (*&*&%$ business what people do in their bedrooms at night. If there were rape victims at YFZ ranch they have had ample opportunity to make themselves known. The only “rape victim” thus far is a mentally deranged crank caller from another state who has never lived in ANY FLDS community.
It is not right to punish children by taking away their home, Father, Mother, siblings and possibly their lives. What did these little children do wrong to deserve to be arrested and imprisoned ?
There was never a legal reason to even go into these peoples ranch. Books made by former members who want to tell lies to make money just don’t cut it for probable cause.
The police never had a right to even set foot on the property must less arrest hundreds of people and hold them prisoner.
I Will have to come back again when my class load lets up – however I am taking your RSS feed so I can read your site offline. Thanks.