Sunday in Outer Blogness: St. Patrick’s Day Edition!

Yes, today marks everyone’s favorite excuse for serving green beer and other Irish treats, plus some other important occasions such as my half-birthday (I guess that makes me 41 1/2), as well as the International day of action to defend apostates and blasphemers.

In Theology, Roger D. Hansen made a powerful argument against dumping unique LDS doctrines in order to seem more “Christian.” Yes, some old LDS doctrines and some new stuff and embarrassing apologetics belong on the garbage pile, but the changes to the scriptures and other subtle scripture additions are sometimes questionable.

And now it looks like John Dehlin’s antics have caused some Mormon-watching Christians some major confusion about Mormonism and atheism, yielding this bizarre list of “things that both atheists and Mormons can largely affirm together”:

  1. Even if Mormonism is false, it is still worth believing and ought not be refuted.
  2. Faith is ultimately irrational.
  3. Even if you don’t believe in God, you should still stay on the membership rolls and consider yourself a Mormon.
  4. If the LDS Church isn’t true, there is no God.
  5. How you live your life is more important than what you believe.
  6. I can’t believe in a God who demands worship.
  7. It doesn’t matter if it’s true. What matters is whether it is official.
  8. I proudly mentally disassociate from the content and implications of my belief system.
  9. I know the Church is true. I have no idea what that means.
  10. There was a conspiracy to fundamentally corrupt the Bible. It is untrustworthy and we look elsewhere for truth.
  11. Apart from Mormonism, I have no good reasons to believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
  12. The existence of my personhood is not owing to any god.
  13. Everything is matter and nothing is immaterial.
  14. There is no ultimate personal being who is the ground of all other being.
  15. There is no first cause.
  16. There are impersonal eternal laws that govern everything.

I’d answer (1) no, (2) yes, (3) only if you have some reason to want to do that, (4) both are true, but if there’s a logical connection, it goes the other way, (5) yes, (6) well, I can’t believe that such a god would deserve worship, (7) WTF??? (8) Christian: “I proudly make up anything at all about people I disagree with, no matter how obviously unwarranted,” (9) WTF??!? (10) second half yes, first half not necessary, (11) yes, except for that initial bit, (12) yes, (13) that depends on what you mean by that, (14) right, (15) that depends on what you mean by that, (16) that depends on what you mean by that. What are your answers?

Banning a fantastic book encouraged kids to read it, but would the same thing convince kids to read the Book of Mormon? What do you think? The kid punished for wearing a pasta-strainer to school may start a trend…

In the exmo arts, people are gathering an exmo album (and looking for submissions), plus some new hymns, and apparently a well-known musician is exmo. Also, this new novel has been getting a lot of attention — I should request a review copy, and maybe read this one and this one as well. Oh, and don’t miss the wrap-up of the Star Trek Galois series!

Others covered various political topics: race, sex, healthcare, and climate change. Plus, the learning experience of having a gay kid, and the logical next step.

In faith journeys, here’s the beginning of the story. Coming out as non-believing to family never stops, working to find the positive side to the experiences gained from Mormonism and learning to parent better by not sacrificing yourself on the altar of parenthood.

Now for some good, clean Mormon fun! Do you recognize this Mormon story? Are these ancient Mormon jewels better or worse than our modern CTR ring? Plus, our favorite über-Mormon tried to demonstrate that Orson Scott Card is not nuts — hilarity ensues!!

Happy reading, and Happy St. Patrick’s Day!!!


C. L. Hanson is the friendly Swiss-French-American ExMormon atheist mom living in Switzerland! Follow me on mastadon at or see "letters from a broad" for further adventures!!

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6 Responses

  1. kuri says:

    I’d answer
    (1) No.
    (2) Yes, although since “irrational” sounds pejorative, I prefer “non-rational.”
    (3) Some people have reasons to stay; those without reasons for staying might as well resign.
    (4) LDS theology is largely a response to the gaping logical holes in other Christian theology, so if it isn’t “true,” then the even worse Gods of other Christian sects seem even less plausible.
    (5) Jesus thought so too.
    (6) I could believe in it, but I couldn’t worship it (unless “grovelling in fear of its power to torture me” counts as “worship”).
    (7) Sounds more like “the Mormon Apologist’s Creed.”
    (8) I own the content and implications of my belief system; I don’t own the content and implications of caricatures of my belief system.
    (9) I don’t think it’s “true” in any meaningful way.
    (10) I don’t know if there was any deliberate conspiracy, but certainly the Bible is untrustworthy, science is a far better source of truth, and present-day thought is a far better source of morality.
    (11) I have no good reasons to believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
    (12) I am a person because I am human. That is true whether there are gods or not.
    (13) What is matter? Never mind. What is mind? No matter.
    (14) Probably not.
    (15) There is quite probably no anthropomorphic first cause.
    (16) That appears to be the case (in this universe, anyway).

  2. chanson says:

    @1 Very good answers! Now I’m tempted to change some of mine. 😉

  3. kuri says:

    Thanks, but since you went first, I was basically riffing off what you said.

  1. March 17, 2013

    […] Article FROM < Yes, today marks everyone’s favorite excuse for serving green beer and other Irish treats, […]

  2. March 17, 2013

    […] chanson’s latest Sunday in Outer Blogness (which y’all should already be reading every week, of course!) showed me a post I had not seen — Aaron Shafovaloff’s Creed of Practical Mormon Atheism at Mormon Coffee. “Practical Mormon Atheism” is, as chanson summarizes, a reaction to John Dehlin’s curious path within, without, and around Mormonism via things like Mormonism and the “uncorrelated Mormon” movement. chanson answered with her thoughts about the 10 creed principles and sought for others’ answers, and I thought I’d post mine…but it quickly became too long for a mere comment. In this post, I’ll answer with my own thoughts about the items, and my thoughts as to whether the item really actually describes uncorrelated, new order, liberal, or otherwise non-traditionally believing (yet-still-identifying) Mormonism. I understand that these groups are many and diverse, so maybe Aaron is talking about different groups completely. […]

  3. March 20, 2013

    […] my last SiOB, I highlighted a list of “things that both atheists and Mormons can largely affirm […]

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