Casualties of the Churchs Stance on Homosexuality: Stories from the Salt Lake Mormon Stories Conference

ex-Mormon Homosexuality Mormon Stories post-Mormon

I have to say that, a year ago, I knew of only a handful of LDS families that were said to have gay members, but I knew nothing of any challenges they may have faced because of this. I had no knowledge of damage that had been done to families by the Churchs involvement in Proposition 8 in California. I was only very dimly aware of the suicides of young gay Mormons who had given up the struggle. I was basically ignorant of the whole issue, which was attributable to me being deeply in the closet myself; I didnt consider it safe to express any interest in such things for fear it would expose me as being gay.

Now, however, I know differently (and feel very, very badly about my former ignorance and apathy), and I want to do what little I can to increase awareness of such issues among the LDS community in which I live locally and am a part globally.

So, speaking to members of this community, I wonder how many of you have family members who are gay or lesbian. A son, a daughter, a father, a mother, an aunt, an uncle, a grandson, a granddaughter, a cousin, a niece, a nephew. Or how many of you have friends who are gay or who have family members who are gay?

If you know of someone in these categories, I wonder how familiar you may be with some of the challenges that these persons, families and friends face when, as faithful members of the LDS Church, they are confronted with the reality of learning that a loved one is gay. I wonder how aware you might be of the turmoil that exists in families in the Church over the Churchs stance toward homosexuality and gay marriage. I wonder whether you know of someone who, though not gay, has left the Church because of the Churchs stance on homosexuality.

There is much I could write on this subject. For this post, however, I want to share just a few stories of real-life people whom I didnt know a week ago. I met them this past weekend at the Mormon Stories Salt Lake Conference. These are simply sketches, but are representative of stories that could be told, I am sure, across the length and breadth of the Church.

Sketch #1: Alice had traveled from England specifically to attend the conference. In getting to know her, she shared that she was a 6th-generation Mormon, some of her ancestors having been converted by Heber C. Kimball on his mission to England. She had been raised in the Church, as had her brother. He had grown up a faithful Latter-day Saint and had served an honorable mission.

This young man, however, harbored a secret: he is gay. After going through an intense struggle with which any young gay Mormon would be familiar, he went in to see his bishop to tell him that he is gay. Expecting support and help, the young man was crushed when his bishop told him there was no place for him in the Church. He returned home, devastated and broken.

Alice was so incensed by this treatment of her brother that she eventually resigned her membership in the Church. She could not be a part of a religious organization that inflicted such pain on someone she loved so deeply.

Sketch #2: Malcolm is a graduate student at the University of Utah. He is a life-long member of the Church a wholesome, handsome young man who exudes a spirit of gentleness and laughter, and who also happens to be gay. In getting to know him, he briefly described to me the challenges he had faced in coming to terms with his homosexuality. Not unlike other young Mormon men who struggle valiantly even desperately to overcome their attraction to men, Malcolm had tried to pray the gay away. He had pleaded. He had fasted. He had gone through therapy. He had also participated in a well-known retreat program that is designed to help gay men overcome their gayness through development of wholesome bonding with other men.

Of course, none of these approaches worked. Finally, Malcolm accepted himself for who he is, and in the wake of doing so came a wave of bitterness and anger toward the church that had told him to go through what he had gone through that had told him that if he just tried hard enough, long enough, and had enough faith, he could overcome his weakness. The wonder of it all was that, here he was, at this conference, wondering if he could yet forge a place for himself in Mormonism.

Sketch #3: Jerry was a man I met Sunday morning while attending Music and the Spoken Word with the Mormon Stories group. He and his wife had come from out of town for the conference. As was the case with others I had met over the course of the weekend, we quickly got to the point of asking each other about our story.

Jerry explained that he is straight, that he had been an active member of the Church for over 25 years, but that his faith had hit the wall over the issue of gay marriage. In the wake of Proposition 8, something arose within him that cried out against what he saw as the injustice and inhumanity of the Churchs treatment of gays and their campaign against gay marriage. He could no longer believe that the leaders of the Church were inspired. He eventually resigned his membership. But there he was with his wife at this conference, wondering – like Alice and Malcolm – if he could forge a place for himself and his wife within the world of Mormonism.

As Ive said, these are just three sketches of lives of members of the Church who have been deeply affected by the Churchs stance on homosexuality. These sketches are representative of many, many other stories which will only grow in number, here in North America and around the world.

So I would like to say to my former ward members and fellow members of the Church around the world that the issue of homosexuality is not going to go away. If an LDS family hasnt already been touched by it, it is only a matter of time before it will be .

Invictus Pilgrim wrote about this past weekend’s Mormon Stories Salt Lake Conference here.


35 thoughts on “Casualties of the Churchs Stance on Homosexuality: Stories from the Salt Lake Mormon Stories Conference

  1. Since you asked…

    There are two of us in my family (that I know of, anyway) who are gay, and yes, we are “aware of the turmoil that exists.” My sister’s 20-year-old son has left the church. His parents are supportive and understanding of his decision, but it’s been a horribly wrenching experience for all of them.

    As for me, I left over 30 years ago, just after my mission. My parents were also loving and supportive, though it took them a few years to get over feeling guilty that my queerness was a result of their failure as parents. The story is much longer, of course, but I have no desire to write an essay-length comment. 🙂

    Thanks for the post.

  2. My big brother is gay, which we all knew basically from early childhood. When he came out, almost everyone in my family was entirely supportive (I have a brother and a sister who object to my gay brother’s “lifestyle”). My big brother is one of my best friends.

    So when husband and I found out that his two younger brothers were gay/bi, we were very supportive. But, their family is LDS. Knowing how an unsupportive religion can harm an LGBT person, I was definitely afraid of how being forced to attend services every Sunday and seminary every morning would affect them, not to mention the fact that their parents, extended family, and some siblings are seriously homophobic.

    All I know is that just one supportive family member can mean the whole world to an LGBT teen in an unsupportive religious family. The two brothers have said that they’ll be exiting the church as soon as they’re 18 because of the church’s involvement in Prop 8.

  3. Thanks for sharing those stories!

    My brother is gay. He came out to the family in 1991 or 1992 while he was attending BYU. There was some difficulty, but it went more smoothly than one might expect. He left the church as soon as he graduated (out of non-belief, not because of the LDS church’s stance on homosexuality). Later, he got interested in LDS history and joined the Community of Christ.

    There may be other gay people in our Mormon extended family, but I don’t know of any off the top of my head. Maybe I’ll find out at the reunion. That reminds me, I need to work on reunion stuff today…

  4. Macha –

    All I know is that just one supportive family member can mean the whole world to an LGBT teen in an unsupportive religious family.

    Absolutely. It can also mean the world to LGBT adults who for whatever reason begin the coming-out process after their teens. That was my experience anyway (except that I had not just one supportive family member, but many).

    chanson – From the little I know of your brother’s story (bits and pieces picked up here and there), I think he’s pretty cool. 🙂

  5. I’m sorry for your loss. Entirely too many people died because gay men couldn’t get the healthcare and information about safe sex they needed just because they couldn’t be open about who they were, and people believed they deserved to die for their “sinful” lifestyle. Thankfully, in the last couple decades health care for gay men, and all LGBT people, has improved a great deal.

  6. My younger brother is gay. My mother was adamant about gay people not being allowed to teach in schools when I was a child. She was convinced they would try to convert impressionable children. She believed that men were not born gay, but were made that way by weak fathers and dominant mothers. When my brother, after years of depression and doing everything from “repenting” and going on a mission, finally just accepted who he is and came out to her, she did a complete 180. Gay men are born, not made by bad mothering when her son is gay. My mom was also married in the temple to a gay man decades ago, until he was arrested and forced out of the closet. She was so traumatized by it that she never even told us that she had been married before she married our father until we were taunted about our divorced mother by snotty cousins. Even they didn’t know about the gay part.

    The whole idea that it is better for people to torture themselves and lie to loved ones is better than just letting them live as they please deeply offends me. I can’t believe it would not have been better for my mother’s first husband to marry a man. I don’t believe homosexuality is a sin, but even if you claim it is sin, isn’t it better for them to sin with each other than to hurt someone else as badly as my mother was hurt? Seeing my brother in a happy relationship makes me happy, not worried for him. I hate what the Church did here in CA on Prop 22 and how they upped the pressure on Prop 8, especially given that Mormons, of all people, should have compassion for those whose families are threatened with being broken up because of majority beliefs about whether their marriages should be allowed to continue.

  7. Having a tendency or a predisposition for a particular behavior is not a sin. Being tempted is not a sin. The deliberate behavior is the sin. The choice to commit the act is the sin. The church can and should always stand against homosexual behavior. It can and should be supportive of those trying to repent of homosexual acts and those who are making an honest effort to resist the temptation to commit such acts. We have a lot of sympathy for people born with severe birth defects. Have you ever stopped to consider that the ultimate birth defect would be a male spirit born into a female body, or a female spirit born into a male body? Imagine yourself being stuck in a body that was the wrong gender. How would you feel? Those who may have to face this type of conundrum do not have an easy life, particularly when they are trying to live according to Christ’s teachings. If they do their honest best to control themselves and endure to the end, they will be healed of all defects and infirmities of mind and body, and will be resurrected into a celestial body restored to its correct gender. No blessing will be lost. However, those who insist on asserting that homosexual behavior is normal and acceptable are in the gall of bitterness, giving themselves over to a perversion unmatched by any other form of filth known to man. When the end comes, and it will, they will be FUBAR.

  8. @ Ilyan:

    When you say that “Having a tendency or a predisposition for a particular behavior is not a sin. Being tempted is not a sin,” maybe you’ve forgotten this little scriptural nugget:

    Proverbs 23:7 – As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.

    Seems as though you’re cherry picking doctrine to suit your needs. Or maybe Proverbs was simply ahead of its time with regards to transgendered folk?

  9. @Ilyan – Your comments reveal typical attitudes of TBMs. So, what in your mind is “homosexual behavior”? “Homosexual acts”? Is a guy kissing a guy “homosexual behavior” that should be “repented of”? Is a guy holding a guy’s hand a “homosexual act”? Are these sinful? Is passionate kissing between two men “sinful”?

    I frankly don’t understand your segue from homosexuality to transgendered. What is the point? Are you comparing homosexuality to a birth defect? Or are you saying that homosexuals should buck up because, hey, it could be a lot worse, one could be transgendered?

    The “gall of bitterness”? Really? “Giving themselves over to a perversion unmatched by any other form of filth known to man.” Really?

    How do you spell bigot?

    In your zeal to condemn, you might just remember what the Savior whom I assume you profess to follow had to say above love and judging others. Just a thought.

  10. I am not talking about entertaining a thought process. I am talking about temptation, tendency, and predisposition. There is a big difference. Even Jesus Christ was tempted. He did not give in to the temptations, and therefore committed no sin. We all have tendencies toward evil in one form or another as we go through life, but we also have the power and the responsibility to control ourselves and avoid indulging or giving in to such tendencies and predispositions. If a person thinks homosexual thoughts or entertains homosexual fantasies, then he is lusting in his heart, and that, indeed, is a sin.

    And, no, I am not cherry picking doctrine to suit my needs. First off, I am not a faggot. Secondly, I am not gay. Thirdly, I am not homosexual.

    I do, however, have plenty of other challenges to face in mortal life, so I cannot assume I am better than anyone else.

  11. First off, I am not a faggot. Secondly, I am not gay. Thirdly, I am not homosexual.

    But you are, evidently, 100% certified asshole.

  12. I’m convinced. I think we should all change our opinions on gay issues to match those of the guy who doesn’t know the difference between homosexuality and transgenderism.

    Also, I always find it very convincing when a guy rants about how “perverted” and “filthy” homosexuality is and then feels the need to repeatedly deny that he’s gay, even when no one’s asked him. No closeted gay guy would ever do anything like that.

  13. Having a tendency or a predisposition for a particular behavior is not a sin. Being tempted is not a sin. The deliberate behavior is the sin.

    Absolutely no one is arguing that a tendency or predisposition toward a behavior is sinful. The general feeling here is that the behavior to which you refer is also not sinful. But really, this post and these comments in no way solicited the doctrinal pontificating you’ve submitted us to.

    Your comments have been off-topic and, in my opinion, insensitive to the feelings of the people sharing their personal stories here, because you imply that the only reason anyone felt harmed by the LDS Church’s policies and teachings on sexual orientation is that they simply don’t understand the doctrine. This isn’t true, and that kind of assumption denotes a lack of empathy, and accomplishes nothing.

    @ Invictus Pilgrim – I am thinking that he actually doesn’t know the difference between transgendered and gay. He seems to think that gay men have sex with other men because they think they are women, rather than it being an authentic same-sex orientation. From what I can see, he cannot seem to imagine a man identifying as male and still being attracted to other men.

  14. Of course there is a difference between homosexuality and transgenderism. Homosexual behavior is and always has been sinful. Transgenderism may or may not involve sin, depending on whether or not a person voluntarily attempts to become or emulate the opposite sex. Being born defective, meaning being born into a body that is of opposite gender as the person’s spirit, is no fault of that person. But, to voluntarily assume the gender traits and characteristics that are clearly of the opposite sex is as vile as any homosexual act, and is a willful defiling of the body. In other words, a man who is clearly a man in body and spirit who decides to have a sex change procedure is defiling himself, and this is a sin.

    It does not matter how much you try to twist words and justify these unnatural and abhorrent practices, they are sinful and destructive, and they will not last beyond mortal life. The world squirms when prophets take a stand against gay marriage, homosexuality, and any form of defiling the body. The truth hurts the wicked, but rescues the repentant soul.

    You can hate me and call me an asshole, and I probably deserve it, but you cannot and will not succeed in advocating behaviors you know are wrong. You might as well advocate pornography and drunkenness and child abuse while you’re at it. Like I said, read the book Earth Sink and see what you have to look forward to.

  15. call me an asshole, and I probably deserve it

    Nice to see we’re on the same page here. Let’s be clear though: that particular descriptor has nothing to do with your beliefs, but with your behavior on this thread. Express yourself like a reasonable human being and, while others may still disagree with you, you’ll find yourself in a better position to win minds and hearts than by writing invective and throwing around terms like “faggot.” If you behave like a Westboro Baptist, then it shouldn’t come as any surprise when others treat you like a hateful bigot.

    Being born defective, meaning being born into a body that is of opposite gender as the persons spirit, is no fault of that person.

    Ah, but didn’t Elder Packer teach that “There is no mismatching of bodies and spirits”? Are you rejecting the words of the prophets? Gasp! Shock! Horror!

    Like I said, read the book Earth Sink and see what you have to look forward to.

    Sneaking in a little plug for your novel. Niiiiice. Saving souls and making a buck.

  16. LdG @14, I thought about leaving a moderator’s remark after IKL’s comment @11 (for the use of terms like “faggot”), but it’s not clear whether it was out-of-bounds. But directly calling someone an asshole simply obscures the issue of who’s in the wrong in this exchange. Please look at Kuri’s comment @15 for a better way to respond.

  17. If Elder Packer did state that there is no mismatching of bodies and spirits, then I stand corrected on my opinion about a spirit of one gender being born into a body of the opposite gender. If there is no possibility of gender mismatch between body and spirit, then that simplifies the issue and gives transgenderism even less, in fact, zero excuse.

    Homosexual behavior never had even the possibility of an excuse. I thought what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah would have taught the world a lesson, but here we are in a time when the lifestyles of Sodom and Gomorrah are a global pandemic, and wolves in sheeps clothing among all religions, including the some members of the LDS Church, are increasingly advocating such behavior as acceptable and justifiable.

    Earth Sink did receive some great reviews, and some scathing reviews, but no one can honestly give a neutral or indifferent review. Luke warm gets spewed out.

    http://www.amazon.com/Earth-Sink-ebook/product-reviews/B003ZYEY7S/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt_sr_5?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addFiveStar

  18. “There is a falsehood that some are born with an attraction to their own kind, with nothing they can do about it. They are just “that way” and can only yield to those desires. That is a malicious and destructive lie. While it is a convincing idea to some, it is of the devil. No one is locked into that kind of life. From our premortal life we were directed into a physical body. There is no mismatching of bodies and spirits. Boys are to become men –masculine, manly men –ultimately to become husbands and fathers. No one is predestined to a perverted use of these powers.” – Elder Boyd K. Packer, General Conference Priesthood Session October 2, 1976

    http://www.lds-mormon.com/only.shtml

    http://www.mormonstudies.net/html/packer/youngmen.html

  19. @ Ilyan – The story of Sodom and Gomorrah has been inappropriately used to condemn gay men and lesbians. The men of Sodom had attempted to rape the men staying with Lot, who happened to be angels. This is one of many crimes attributed to the people of Sodom however, and even among the least, as many sources do not even list it among their crimes, such as Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Wisdom, and Sirach. These books list pride, inhospitality, folly, insolence, lying, and unwillingness to repent. While it is clear that a homosexual crime was attempted in the city, it is obvious that later writers did not regard it as the primary reason for the destruction of the city, and hence not truly a good enough reason to condemn it altogether as immoral or unnatural.

  20. You can hate me and call me an asshole, and I probably deserve it, but you cannot and will not succeed in advocating behaviors you know are wrong. You might as well advocate pornography and drunkenness and child abuse while youre at it. Like I said, read the book Earth Sink and see what you have to look forward to.

    Nobody here hates you or expressed hate. Disagreeing with you and getting angry when you insult people is not hate.

    The LGBT rights movement is succeeding in advocating for acceptance of these “behaviors”: – Gay marriage enacted in the nation’s capital, Prop 8 struck down as unconstitutional, Civil unions – marriage in all but name – legislatively enacted in HI, DE, IL and within a few weeks, RI, Five national polls show significant increases in support for marriage equality, Attempts to repeal marriage equality in Iowa and New Hampshire thwarted despite huge GOP effort … we’re doing pretty well actually.

    It is pointless and insulting to imply that we all “know” that being gay and gay behaviors are wrong. I, in fact, know that there’s nothing harmful or destructive about gay and lesbian relationships. If you want to win arguments, it’s not helpful to imply that you think you can read the other person’s mind.

    While obviously alcoholism and child abuse are repugnant, I don’t think anybody needs to “advocate” for pornography. It’s doing pretty well on its own, especially in the mostly-Mormon state of Utah.

  21. Making sinful behaviors legal does not make such behaviors right or correct in the eternal scheme of things. Drinking alcohol is legal in all states, but it is still morally wrong and both spiritually and physically harmful, even in so called moderation. By the same token, no amount of political, legislative, and social acceptance of homosexual behavior and same sex unions or same sex marriages will make such atrocities right.

    The Book of Mormon clearly states that when a free nation exercises a majority vote to seat corrupt leaders who enact laws and sanction practices that are contrary to the laws of God, then that nation is ripening for destruction. Sure enough, entire civilizations have been destroyed for perverting the ways of God. Of course, homosexual activity is not the only sin contributing to the destruction of nations and peoples, but it is definitely among the worst, if not the worst, of the contributing factors.

    Sodom and Gomorrah were indeed the filthiest dens of homosexual behaviors. Scholars who say otherwise are flat wrong. Gays who say otherwise are rationalizing their own lusts. I dont need to read anyones mind. It is obvious, as clear as night and day. The light of Christ is given to all men, so that all men can know good from evil. Those who indulge in homosexual acts know it is wrong. They pretend it is right because it feels good in their own corrupted way of thinking and feeling, but it is a foul perversion, and that is putting it politely.

    Lot offered his two virgin daughters to the townsmen of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the townsmen refused the girls but tried to break down Lot’s door to get at the visiting angels whom they saw as fresh male meat to lust after. So frenzied in their vile lusts were the townsmen, that even when struck blind, they continued to accost Lot’s house, desperate for new male flesh to defile. Read the Old Testament account for yourself if you dont believe me. Lot did not sin in offering his two virgin daughters to the townsmen. He already knew the men would refuse the girls because the men were completely ripened in their homosexuality, and thus ripened for destruction.

    Lots act of offering his daughters and witnessing the blatant preference for male flesh was an irrefutable testimony before God and angels and men that the perversions of Sodom and Gomorrah had fully ripened and were, at that point, beyond any hope of correction and redemption. That story is a warning to the world, but nobody is listening. History is repeating itself and is doing so on a global scale. The pandemic of homosexual behavior and transgenderism is a global catastrophe and will result in a near extinction-level chain of events that could have been prevented by self control and repentance.

    You say alcoholism and child abuse are repugnant, and you are correct. But listen to yourself. In the same breath you imply that a man sticking his penis into another man’s anus is not repugnant. Are you serious?! You can’t get more repugnant and unnatural than that!

    As for winning arguments, I do not expect or even hope to win any arguments. That is not my purpose. Nor am I expecting any kind of popularity or respect. I am not here to make friends. I am speaking out boldly and unabashedly with a voice of warning. If those who advocate and promote transgenderism and homosexual activities can boldly and shamelessly effect legislative reforms that openly sanction and protect such foul and abominable practices, then I have the right and the duty to stand fearlessly and vocally against the onslaught of their perversions.

    Be angry at me. Disagree with me. Accuse me of being judgmental and unchristian and overbearing and bigoted and whatever else helps you feel justified in your own mind. But, mark my words, when the end comes, you will not have to answer to me. You already know it is Jesus Christ to whom you must answer for your thoughts and your words and your deeds. Let Christ condemn me for my vigorous manner of expression and personal testimony, if he so chooses, and let him deal with you and those like you as he sees fit. Im not your judge. Im just some random dude calling it like it is. Prophets and apostles have done the same and have been murdered for speaking similar words of truth. I cannot hope to win friends by speaking the same words and raising the same warning voice to a world that is incorrigibly obdurate.

    earthsink.blogspot.com

    Look for the excerpts.

  22. In the same breath you imply that a man sticking his penis into another mans anus is not repugnant. Are you serious?!

    Yes, I am serious. It’s not particularly appetizing to me personally, but I’m not a gay man. If we’re talking about me and my husband, that’s a different story.
    That’s the thing – straight men think that because anal sex between men grosses them out (duh, they like women, of course it’s gross to them), that’s “nature” telling them it’s just wrong, when really it’s no different than me getting grossed out by mac and cheese. All it means is that I don’t like it. It does not mean that mac and cheese is evil or unnatural.

    Making sinful behaviors legal does not make such behaviors right or correct in the eternal scheme of things.

    Nobody’s talking about changing the “eternal scheme of things.” You claimed it was impossible to advocate for the acceptance of gay behavior:

    you cannot and will not succeed in advocating behaviors you know are wrong.

    I was pointing out that you are wrong. Society is changing, and not just in the law books. Support for LGBT rights and acceptance of LGBT people is growing constantly. If current events are any indicator, the LGBT movement CAN and WILL succeed in doing exactly as you say they cannot and will not.

  23. It’s a lot different than mac and cheese grossing someone out. Mac and cheese just make a person fat. Homosexual behavior destroys a persons soul.

    The so called gay lesbian bisexual transgender alphabet soup movement will have a season of presumed success, but will meet a horrific and devastating and sudden end. It is evil and it will not prevail, and you know it. Anyone who thinks it will is in for a terrifying surprise. Surely you cannot be so naive as to think that just because an evil movement is gaining popularity and strength in society, it is actually going to last indefinitely. Surely, you don’t believe there is actually an eternal kingdom where homosexual activity is practiced forever without consequence. You may or may not be gay, but you certainly appear to sympathize with and support the perversion and those who indulge it. That is your right and your prerogative, and your eternal risk. Not a risk worth taking. None who remain in Babylon will be spared.

  24. None who remain in Babylon will be spared.

    Threats of violence are not appropriate here.

    To the regulars: IMHO, this discussion is not going anywhere constructive — it might be time to stop feeding it, thanks.

  25. Mentioning the future consequences of a sinful and perverted and depraved lifestyle is not a threat of violence. Now you are really twisting words.

    To the regulators: It does indeed appear that this discussion is going nowhere. Evil cannot be reasoned with, placated, negotiated with, appeased, or pacified. The wicked cannot wield their way with swords of sand. I have said all I came here to say, and what I have said will stand, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

  26. Mentioning the future consequences of a sinful and perverted and depraved lifestyle is not a threat of violence. Now you are really twisting words.

    I’m not trying to twist your words. It’s just that we’ve had enough comments where people have stated or implied that the sentence would be carried out by the faithful that — unless you specifically state that you’ll leave this whole destruction of Babylon thing for God to carry out Himself — you might be hinting that you’re planning to participate…

  27. I have an idea!! once I saw a article of Joseph Smith who said that if we can get our head inside of Heaven.. we could learn in 1 minute more that we can learn in a life time.. and as we members of the church know.. we were angels before we come to this world.. but how do we know that we were male and female? or even if we were.. did we have a penis and a vagina? or are those just instrument for reproduction place there by God? or maybe there were some Angels that didnt want to be known as male or female.. I dont care what people say.. I seen some young kids who have no idea what sex is and act like they are gay.. heck! the church change their mind about blacks in the 70’s we need to stop the discrimination and learn to love our brothers and sisters no matter what or what they choose to be..if we discriminate then we are no better than the devil itself.. and it’s discussing how our church got in to bed with the catholic church over politics.. religion and politics dont mix.. and our bishops need to have some type of training about dealing with our brothers and sisters.. I know we are told that they are choose by GOD.. but gee!! some of those bishops are huge morons!! maybe we were all unisex and GOD saw that as a problem.. and that’s why he created male and female like the bible said.. but some of our brothers and sisters kind of retain some of their feeling about unisex.. who knows!! for now.. lets chill and dont be idiots on judging others.. lets respect and love each other like our GOD wants us to do..

  28. oh.. and Ilyan Kei Lavanway is a moron who think he’s better than everyone.. if you are truly a good mormon.. learn to be a little more humble.. learn not to judge.. learn how to be more tolerant.. your God is a vindictive, murderer and hateful God.. and oh!! that’s just Satan.. dude!! learn to love everyone!! no matter who or what they are.. I can imagine all the mormon’s shock face when the church decided to give the priesthood to the blacks.. I imagine lots of saints left the church.. I bet you will leave the church if the church decide to love the gays.. get over the fear.. ignorant little human.. what will you if Aliens drop by and you see that they dont look like us? who is their GOD??? holly crap.. you will crap your pants.. lol..

  29. First of all, God created us in His image, male and female. The fact that we are male and female indicates that our Heavenly Parents (God and His Wife) are and always have been male and female, respectively.

    Second, modern prophets and apostles have made it unequivocally clear that our spirits, even in pre-mortal life, have always had gender, and that a male spirit always gets a male body and a female spirit always gets a female body. Elder Boyd K. Packer declared that “there are no mismatched spirits,” referring to gender of body and spirit.

    Third, modern and ancient revelation, and Christ Himself, have declared unequivocally that any sexual relation outside of marriage between man and woman is sin.

    Fourth, isn’t the purpose of life to learn to discriminate between good and evil? Yes, we do discriminate, and we must discriminate, and judge, between good behavior and filthy behavior, righteous lifestyles and evil lifestyles, correct principles and perversions, people who embrace truth and people who persist in promoting filth and perversion.

    You do not get to spew forth your pro-gay agenda and expect it to change eternal truth or alter revealed Church policy. The Church has always done exactly what Christ has directed it to do regarding every issue under the sun, no matter how politically or morally heated the debates among men have been.

    Do we need to treat gays with respect? Perhaps. Just as we would treat any child of God with respect. Why? To allow them a chance to repent and correct their behavior. Not to condone and promote such behavior. Filthy behavior is filthy. Period. Legalizing it does not make it right. Only repentance gets you into heaven, not gay rights legislation and popularity among society.

    God often lets the wicked destroy the wicked, or allows the consequences of unresolved sins to overtake and consume the impenitent. Occasionally, however, He Himself destroys those who persist in moral debauchery of unmentionable depravity.

    Case in point: Sodom and Gomorrah. God burned those cities and their inhabitants and all their possessions to the ground, specifically because of the homosexual behavior that was ongoing therein. Yes, there were other sins present as well, but other sins were not the deciding factor in the utter decimation of the cities and the people. That should tell you, warn you, about the degree of severity the sin of homosexual behavior carries. It is a most foul dereliction of humanity and identity. It will not go unanswered!

    Ilyan Kei Lavanway

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