Top LDS Apostle Boyd K. Packer: Mormons will always oppose Satan’s counterfeit marriages (transcript attached below)
The age of homophobes is over. They are a throwback to a different age, when people were ignorant of the realities of sexual identity. When Anderson Cooper, a CNN reporter, can openly mock a homophobe (Andrew Shirvell) on the air, you know the age of homophobia is over.
I’m certainly not wishing death on anyone, not even someone as hateful as Mr. Packer; that would be almost as mean as saying what he just did in conference. But I think he is the ring leader among the octo- and novo-generian leadership of LDS Inc. opposing same-sex marriage. There are probably at least a few younger apostles who are either sympathetic or at the very least indifferent to the issue of same-sex marriage (e.g., Henry Eyring and Dieter Uchtdorf strike me as being possible candidates, though they could probably never say so publicly like Marlin Jensen did recently). I’m guessing the current situation is kind of like the blacks and the priesthood situation – a couple of crotchety old holdouts are keeping the leadership from being just 20 years behind the times. Once those holdouts kick the bucket, progress!
I won’t wish for Boyd Packer to die. But I have to wonder what changes will occur when he finally does kick it.
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P.S. Former Student Review staffer and current friend of Main Street Plaza, Eric Ethington (who links to MSP from his blog, Pride in Utah), talks to FOX13 in the second half of this report (Eric’s interview starts at the 1:35 mark):
‘Tough Talk’ on Homosexuality from an Old and Tired Mormon ‘Apostle’ …
ABC4 reports that more than 400 have signed up on Facebook to protest in Salt Lake City (now over 500 600 1,100 as of this posting):
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Transcript:
We raise an alarm and warn members of the Church to wake up and understand whats going on. Parents be alert, ever watchful, that this wickedness might threaten your family circle. We teach a standard of moral conduct that will protect us from Satans many substitutes and counterfeits for marriage. We must understand that any persuasion to enter into any relationship that is not in harmony with the principles of the Gospel must be wrong. In the Book of Mormon we learn that “wickedness never was happiness.” Some suppose that they were “pre-set” and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn tendencies toward the impure and the unnatural. Not so. Why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone? Remember, He is our Father.
Paul promised, “God will not suffer you to be tempted above what ye are able, but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” You can if you will, break the habits and conquer the addiction and come away from that which is not worthy of any member of the church. As Alma cautioned, we must “watch and pray continually.” Isaiah warned, “Wo unto them that call evil good and good evil, that put darkness for light and light for darkness, that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.”
Years ago, I visited a school in Albuquerque. The teacher told me about a youngster who brought a kitten to class. As you can imagine, that disrupted everything. She had him hold up the kitten in front of the children. It went well until one of the children asked, “Is it a boy kitty or a girl kitty?” Not wanting to get into that lesson, the teacher said, “It doesnt matter, its just a kitty.” But they persisted. Finally one boy raised his hand and said, “I know how you can tell.” Resigned to face it, the teacher said, “How can you tell?” And the student answered, “You can vote on it.”
You may laugh at the story. But, if we’re not alert, there are those today who not only tolerate but advocate voting to change lives that would legalize immorality. As if a vote would somehow alter the designs of God’s laws of nature. A law against nature would be impossible to enforce. For instance, what good would the law against – a vote against – the law of gravity do?
There are both moral and physical laws irrevocably decreed in Heaven before the foundation of the world that cannot be changed. History demonstrates over and over again that moral standards cannot be changed by battle and cannot be changed by ballot. To legalize that which is basically wrong or evil will not prevent the pain and penalties that will follow as surely as night follows day.
Regardless of the opposition, we are determined to stay on course. We will hold to the principles and laws and ordinances of the Gospel. If they are misunderstood, either innocently or willfully, so be it. We cannot change, we will not change the moral standards. We quickly lose our way when we disobey the laws of God.
Transcript courtesy of BrinkleyBoy @ r/exmormon
Flamboyant homophobes like Boyd K Packer are 90% always repressed, self-loathing homosexuals. It’s now a rule of religious psychology that the more extremely anti-gay a person is, the more likely they are to be same-sex attracted themselves. Examples are on a Ranklist of the top anti-gay secretly-gay politicians, and there are also a ton of historical examples.
Boyd K Packer has been obsessed with gays his entire adult life, he rants about gays at every GC since the 70s, it’s like he dreams about gay sex. I’m a 1 on the Kinsey Scale of sexuality and I’ve never had a thought about gay sex, and I don’t worry about it, neither do any of my genuinely straight friends. Boyd’s infamous warning to the YM about “boys” must represent his secretest desire.
Only a closet-case like Boyd K Packer could think that same-sex attraction is a choice, because he has been choosing to hate himself for years he thinks everybody else should too. It wouldn’t shock me to learn that Boyd K Packer has some skeletons in his “closet.” His firing of “liberal” professors from BYU was directly related to work that one of them did on gay relationships among the early Saints, which were common and not scandalous. What is President Packer so scared of?
The bottom line that any gay kid needs to know is that the biggest bullies are secretly queer and they are the most dangerous. It is much more honorable and respectable to be openly gay or lesbian, even if it means leaving the LDS, than it is to be a closeted, self-loathing homosexual like Apostle Boyd K. Packer, who lives a life of bitter hatred.
Sadly the lds church will most likely always be ruled by heterosexual old white men, rarely not US citizens. So even if Packer dies and they stop oppressing gay people so much, they will still most likely be many years behind the rest of the country on issues like this.
Andrew Sullivan: A Mormon Thaw?
Exactly one hour after Andrew posted a link to Joanna Brooks’ piece on the Marlin Jensen meeting (calling it “A remarkable event in Oakland”) … Boyd K. Packer happened.
And now I think I’m going to go back and re-read all my emails from Mormon bloggers who’ve written me complaining about counter-productive approaches to effecting change in the LDS church. Because I could use a good laugh.
Other linkage:
Jana Riess: LDS Apostle Boyd K. Packer Is Wrong About Homosexual Relationships
John Aravosis: Now that several gay kids are dead, Mormon leader suddenly chooses to mouth off in anti-gay tirade
Human Rights Campaign: HRC to Mormon Apostle: Your Statements are Inaccurate and Dangerous
Hmm, protecting people from learning to use evidence and reason — nothing good comes of that strategy, as this story clearly demonstrates.
Humble people submit their opinions to logic and evidence. We have documented homosexual behavior among hundreds of species ranging from reptiles and birds to mammals including all the primate species.
The evidence says that homosexuality is a natural phenomenon that does not hurt anyone any more than heterosexuality.
Unfortunately, Boyd Packer is too arrogant to acknowledge the evidence and too cowardly to change his views. The results will be devastating to the believers.
More families will be broken, more children will commit suicide because they put their faith into a man who stubbornly clings to his prejudices instead of humbly embracing love.
A little bit of humility and courage will go a long way in setting our love for our children and neighbors free.
Prof, Dieter Uchtdorf is pretty unforgiving of any sexual failure. He just has better manners than Boyd Packer.
Packer behaves like a thug, Uchtdorf like a gentleman but their views about obedience and sexuality are fairly identical.
I’m sorry, did a Mormon apostle just argue that marriage between one man and one woman is a “natural state” like gravity and at no time in history has the law been different, really? I don’t even know where to begin.
Instead I think I will focus on the other grave injustice revealed in this post. Someone seriously named their daughter Ninevah.
I know, so many things wrong with this that it would be a joke if people weren’t planning to use this nonsense to attack civil rights.
Let me take a crack at it, though. First of all, he’s conflating the (civil) laws of the land with scientific principles — merely because (in English) both are sometimes called with the word “law”. But they’re not the same thing at all.
But that’s not the worst of it.
When it comes to civil laws and scientific “laws” neither one of them is decided by your local cleric! One of them is determined by the consent of the governed (often through vote), and the other is discovered through the scientific method.
So much for all the work to repair their image…. This is all it takes. Who cares how many skateboarders belong to the church when some old hatemonger can sit behind the podium and spout nonsense like this?
This stuff makes me so angry as to be irrational. I have so many friends, acquaintances. so many family members who totally believe this kind of thing, and to have their illustrious apostle say things like this only validates their feelings which leads to more and more self-hatred and perhaps worse.
It’s unforgivable.
I, too, believe Packer doth protest too much.
But that only makes it worse.
I don’t think much of their “heavenly father.”
Amen and amen to everything Keep Sweet said in the first post! I’ve been thinking the same thing for ages, but never had a place to verbalize (type!) it out loud. Well expressed.
LOL, Holly. Somebody should cut an “I am a Mormon” ad from Boyd Packer’s speech.
LOL, Holly. Somebody should cut an I am a Mormon ad from Boyd Packers speech.
Yes! With the tagline, “My name is Boyd K.Packer. I’m a raging homophobe, an unrepentant bigot, a self-aggrandizing bully, a two-bit martinet enraged to realize that I won’t live long enough to become president of the church and squash my enemies under my iron fist, so sexually repressed I don’t even know what my orientation is, and I’m a Mormon.”
I’d vote for a video like that on Youtube! If I had the time I’d do it, but I don’t right now. Anyone else with the skills?
Oops–forgot “humorless git unable to recognize irony.”
I don’t have the tech skills to make the video, but I hope someone will.
Just wanted to thank Jeremy Hooper at G-A-Y for linking to this post:
‘Satan’s many substitutes’ (and he’s not referring to that string of awful fill-ins from when your fifth grade teacher was on maternity leave)
Cheers!
In the days when evil shall be called good, and good evil. Timeless assessment of such mockery of an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ is unacceptable and unbecoming of any who hold any stake in belief in the restored gospel. I am ashamed to see so many, frankly faith lacking members, nitpick at an apostle. Your desires to change the laws of God go beyond rational thinking, but for a more selfish understanding. May I suggest your beef isn’t with Elder Packer, but lies in the struggle to be able to comprehend the underlining of whether Joseph Smith was a true prophet or not.
If He really did see God, and Jesus Christ as He said he did, and if He really was called a prophet, then the line of succession with proper authority is still in play, making Elder Packer a true Apostle of God, called to testify, preach repentance, and teach, which seems is hard for those unbelievers to take to heart. If Joseph Smith was not a prophet, but a liar, then naturally Elder Packer would not be a true Apostle. So, instead of bickering, and mocking something you struggle with and blame God for all that is wrong, may I suggest figuring out if Joseph Smith was a true Prophet, because if he is, Elder Packer is a true Apostle in our days, and if that is true, then the call to repentance and teaching he gave which pierce your hearts as it shows, is something you need to come to grips with.
Packer’s hate-speech and others like it are directly responsible for the deaths of LGBT teens everywhere. There will be a protest over his bigoted remarks this Thursday in SLC http://bit.ly/dgq2Iz
E,
Your logic is, of course, faulty (just like Packer’s). Joseph could have been “called of God,” but that would not necessarily mean that Packer was a true apostle, or that what Packer said yesterday was true or right or good (or are you arguing that everything any “true” apostle has ever said in General Conference is absolutely true and right and good?). Joseph Smith could have been a fallen prophet, as many of the early Mormons, such as David Whitmer, believed. The keys could have passed to another after his death, as many faithful Mormons not belonging to the Monsonite branch of Mormonism, such as Martin Harris (for a time), believe. The church could have fallen into apostasy at any time after Brigham Young took the helm, as many fundamentalist Mormons believe. Or, as you suggest might be the case, Joseph Smith himself could have been a fraud, deluded, or some combination of the two. That would make Packer the same. Having examined an abundance of evidence on the matter, that is the conclusion I have reached. Talks like Packer’s simply underscore the point.
I admit I was horrified by CLP’s report that at the Oakland meeting, Marlin Jensen “added that in his experience the general authorities of the Church are as good-hearted a group of men as could be found anywhere, perhaps not perfect, but trying hard to do what is right and that they entered the Proposition 8 campaign without malice.”
I think this latest talk shows just how rotten Packer’s heart is, how much malice he’s infected with.
How does the corporate church not realize that the world will instantly become a better place for everyone–especially Mormons–if they give that old bully emeritus status, and never let him in front of a microphone again?
I recommend this analysis: http://wisdomlikeastone.com/04/10/elder-packer-axis/
It includes this question:
“If an apostle, an individual who is entitled to direct inspiration and revelation from deity, cant get the basic facts rightbasic facts that should be gleaned from life experience, but can be verified in a casual visit to the public librarythen how can we trust them to get other, perhaps more important matters, right?”
Or check out Jana Reiss saying flatout that Packer is wrong: http://blog.beliefnet.com/flunkingsainthood/2010/10/lds-apostle-boyd-k-packer-is-wrong-about-homosexuality.html
These are people who still go to church. Reiss is a very faithful member with a strong testimony of the Book of Mormon.
I think that if members could impeach an apostle, Packer would be history.
E @17 — It’s not mockery, it’s that we’re pointing out an example of the exact problem you mention: “evil shall be called good, and good evil.” This man is spreading lies that are killing our precious young people. And people (even many parents whose own kids are gay) wrongly assume that this man’s words must be good, just because he has claimed the noble title of “apostle”. That’s why we’re speaking out about it.
Holly, perhaps, the issue is self-righteousness. The consequences of Packer’s behavior are malicious. Unfortunately, it doesn’t necessarily follow that his motives are malicious.
We can explain his behavior in terms of egocentrism and self-righteousness and need not invoke malice.
In some ways, that actually makes it worse. Adam Smith pointed out: “Virtue is more to be feared than vice because its excesses are not subject to the regulation of the conscience.”
Packer can be so ruthless and brutal in pursuing his interests because he cloaks them in terms of the ultimate virtue.
In Brighamism, an arrogant epistemology exacerbates our capacity to abuse our neighbors. Rather than invoking faith, we claim to know the will of God.
Knowledge claims imply power claims and Boyd Packer is as certain about his knowledge claims as the totalitarian despots of the 20th century were about theirs. If he could have his way, he would rival the brutality of Lenin and others.
@20 Excellent links, thanks!
Just wanted to thank Pam Spaulding at Pam’s House Blend for linking to MSP from her post:
Video: the homophobic bile of LDS Apostle Boyd K. Packer
Nice to have some Blenders passing through, cheers!
Chino — that’s so cool about the conversation online! Especially the interview with Eric Ethington! I remember him from our Student Review days, but I had no idea what he was up to!
I have to agree that his message was very hurtful to GL community. I am right on board with people there. However, no one has mentioned how his stance on porn addiction is also lacking. If someone is truly struggling with porn and is trying to do the mormon thing of praying, fasting, reading scriptures, talking with priesthood leaders, seeking counselling, ect… And still have no success, and then to hear Packer say, that all they need to do is get it out of their mind and have the preisthood help them… (like some magic cure) It seems to me that it just helps re-inforce the persons self-hate that is fueling their addctive cycle to begin with. The self-talk begins. “I must be doing something wrong if this isn’t working.” “I must not be worthy, because he says I should be able to stop.” “What is wrong with me?” When the person should be asking themselves, if this isn’t working, then maybe I should try something else. I think masturbation isn’t a problem. I agree that porn can become a problem if it takes over regular functions of our lives. But making someone feel innadequate and self-loathing is not going to help. Our sexual feelings are normal and should be embraced not supressed. I am not suggesting rampant promiscuity, but acceping our sexual feelings as normal, whether we choose to act on them or not, is more important to healing. I guess I don’t really know the answer, but I really felt that there was more wrong with his talk then just homosexuality (even though this bothered me as well.)
B’KKK’P reversed in 20 minutes any positive image the Church could have hoped to create with the “…and I’m a Mormon” and mormon.org campaign. And completely spent any goodwill that resulted from the Marlin Jensen “apology.”
To answer the question of the post, yes, I think it will continue after Packer. Packer thinks about homosexuality in terms of gender identity; he won’t touch the concept of “orientation.” A lot of the anger toward Packer on this subject I believe has to do with his unwillingness to acknowledge gay people as gay people. Unfortunately, I think the rhetoric will take a more subtle form after Packer and Monson of the Oaks and Holland variety, whereby an orientation will be okayed in terms of vernacular discourse, but “agency” will be said to trump it. This idea has been around since the 1990s, as espoused first by Hinckley who said “We have gays in the Church”– whereas Packer likes to hark back to the 1960s when everything was easier because gays knew they were “evil,” but were “immoral” anyway out of “selfishness.”
Given the high volume of conference talks admonishing people to FOLLOW THE CURRENT PROPHET no matter what, it’s a sign that more and more rank & file members are not. That’s actually a good sign, imo. It means change will *eventually* happy and at the very least, it’s already happening amongst the members.
I find it ironic that the title of this post is “hateful rhetoric..”, yet I did not hear any “hateful” words, but rather someone taking a stand and expressing where the Church stands and why. Calling homosexual behavior (and pornography, which was actually a bigger portion of the message) immoral and explaining that there is a way out – repentence – is a message of love, the same message Christ delivered (and continues to deliver) to sinners. Its the same message for all of us.. Turn your life toward Christ, repent and come unto Him. Its the only way to happiness.
I do believe about 90% of the comments here were “hateful” towards Boyd K. Packer. I think if those of you visiting this site were honest, you’d see in yourselves the hypocrisy label you are trying to pin on others.
Jason, you’re a good old friend. I’m wondering why are you being so antagonistic and critical toward the Church and its leaders. Joseph Smith did say regarding apostates that they would never be able to leave the Church alone, there is no neutral ground. Are you really comfortable fighting against The Church of JESUS CHRIST? Is that what your new religion is (Anti-Mormon)?
Posting this in apostate territory will surely invite mockery and more debate, in which I will not participate.
yet I did not hear any hateful words, but rather someone taking a stand and expressing where the Church stands and why. Calling homosexual behavior (and pornography, which was actually a bigger portion of the message) immoral and explaining that there is a way out repentence is a message of love
Let’s extract the salient message: CALLING HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOR IMMORAL IS A MESSAGE OF LOVE.
That sums up the basic message of Mormonism, its essential blindness (or deafness, in this case, since David F. can’t “hear”), and its inherent cruelty:
it self-righteously tells people that its labeling them immoral is love.
If you don’t feel the love when someone says you’re evil, why, that just shows how much MORE evil you are!
Well, David F., here’s how much I love you: you’re immoral. You’re grossly immoral, and we must take a stand against you, or civilization will fall. But there is a way out of your evil: education, evidence, equality. (Hey! I like that alliteration. Can it be part of the mission here or something?)
So–you feeling the love?
If not, it’s your fault–’cause, you know, you’re immoral.
I’m actually quite surprised at the tone of these comments. I despise the church as much as the next guy, but this GC talk isn’t anything new. It’s decades-old rhetoric. I find it more interesting that this talk was given in the face of multiple gay suicides and the resurfacing of the Prop 8 fiasco in the media. This corporate church has thrown its PR out the window, the consequences of which will no doubt hurt its numbers and make me quite happy. Its fun to watch the church destroy itself.
Kevin, I think it’s because we’ve had reason to hope things were getting better.
David F., The reason his words are hateful is because he essentially said that homosexuality is an immoral choice and that it can be changed with enough effort. You can argue about its morality, but evidence shows that homosexuality is to some degree innate, not a matter of choice, and that it can’t be changed.
So, Packer is shaming people for a choice they didn’t make and have no power to change.
Hey Dave,
Did you listen to the podcast I linked to in comments over on my Facebook page? If not, here’s the link again: BYU Professor Bill Bradshaw on a Biological Origin of Homosexuality
If you’re not in the mood to debate, go listen to Dr. Bradshaw. Do that and maybe the next time we talk, it can be something like an actual conversation.
And Dave, you know, after I left BYU, I spent twenty years leaving the church alone.
And then you guys decided to pull out all the stops to get Prop 8 passed. And not in a nice way.
You’ve got it bass-ackwards if you’re asking me whether I’m comfortable fighting the LDS church on this issue. It’s your church leaders who need to be asking themselves whether they really want me and my friends spending the next twenty years pissed off at their political meddling and pathetic exploitation of anti-gay prejudice.
And if you do check out that link to Mormon Stories and Dr. Bradshaw’s presentation, you’ll see this quote in comments over there:
The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church. Ferdinand Magellan
I have more faith in the goodness of my gay friends and family than I do in Boyd K. Packer’s incoherent babbling. If you choose to follow Boyd, I have to wonder: Is that what your new religion is (Anti-Gay)?
Tic #26, you are quite right about pornography. It’s best to stop obsessing about sex.
If you go shopping in your bikini or in a burka really doesn’t make much of a difference. Either way, you are obsessing about sex and you are just making the problem worse.
In the army, there was porn everywhere and you could always tell the boys who had been raised by the most uptight parents because their noses were constantly in the magazines.
In light of Packer’s rhetoric, it’s no wonder that per capita Utah residents are the number one consumers of online pornography. The sex industry owes the brethren big time.
@ Hellmut: “In light of Packers rhetoric, its no wonder that per capita Utah residents are the number one consumers of online pornography. The sex industry owes the brethren big time.”
I would guess that isn’t so much that they watch a lot more porn than everyone else, but that living among Mormons, they can’t just go into a video store or porn shop like people do in the rest of the country, so they have to get their kicks online.
They sell porn in stores?! 😉
By the way, a quick update about the Main Street Plaza YouTube channel (yes, we have one) …
The Human Rights Campaign is using our latest video in its online letter-signing campaign to Boyd Packer. Sign the letter and see the video here.
And of course everyone here is invited to head over and subscribe to/befriend MSP’s YouTube channel here.
Gen. JC Christian links in and otherwise makes America proud (especially with that quote from Elder Packer on “Miscegenation” [spoiler alert: Packer’s against it]).
How can anyone believe that things will change when 20,000 souls absorbed this vicious nonsense and not one voice was raised in protest?
And so far, the ABC4 (Utah) poll is running 60% in favor of Packer’s views.
Click here to vote.
Regarding the question of porn (which BKP has tossed in the bucket with homosexuality), we’ve discussed it quite a bit here on MSP. Those who are new to this site, please have a look at our earlier discussions.
The ABC poll was 57% in opposition when I voted in the last half hour.
It could be that more people outside the LDS community are voting as the story of Packer’s speech has been picked up by belief.net, Andrew Sullivan, Perez Hilton, Huffington Post and, I”m sure, others.
The poll is being pharyngulated. 😀
Some cracks are showing. This morning I read a faithful blog where the poster disagreed with the substance of Packer’s talk. This person appears to be a faithful mormon – not even a new order mormon (but I wouldn’t know for sure).
One of the things we talk about a lot here at MSP is whether or not disagreement and dissent are allowing in the LDS church. I think if the leadership keeps making such statements that are out of touch with anything from a third to a half of the membership – this will be obvious pretty quick. Either this is an issue where mormons can respectfully disagree with one another, or it’s not.
I was also thinking, perhaps this is an issue for a schism of the LDS church. I was thinking that some of the leadership might actually do well in an organization like the westboro baptist church. But that’s not terribly positive of me to say.
The pointed silence from some of the bigger ‘nacle blogs is deafening. And telling. Normally you can’t shut their asses up, but they accidentally forgot to take a stand on this one.
OTOH, FMH FTW — 515 comments and counting.
And a second thread for good measure.
Edited to fix my verb tenses. Pesky verb tenses! I meant: “One of the things we talk about a lot here at MSP is whether or not disagreement and dissent are allowed in the LDS church. I think if the leadership keeps making such statements that are out of touch with anywhere from a third to a half of the membership this will be obvious pretty quick.”
aerin, I’m not placing any bets that this will cause a schism (I see this going down more like the racial issues than the polygamy issue) but if it did happen, both schisms would have to make some claim to the true authority. Mormonism puts so much emphasis on authority. I would be interesting to see how the rival claims would be made.