I knew we had faithful Mormons reading this blog, but ProfXM’s thread on “feeling the Spirit” really brought them out of lurking!! So, today, I’d like to open a new thread where the faithful can introduce themselves and the rest of us can welcome them!
I want to reiterate that Main Street Plaza is a place where we can all have a reasonable, civil discussion — despite differences in belief. We are absolutely open to constructive criticism. Organizations (like the CoJCoL-dS or the Mormon Alumni Association) can only improve by recognizing and addressing problems. I would just like to ask you first to be sure you’ve read our welcome page and our FAQ (on why we write about Mormonism) so that we don’t waste our time, yours, and precious electrons on repeating ourselves (eg. “you guys are all a bunch of ant-Mormons and I’m sure that you hate me,” etc.). Your feedback on specific posts or policies, however, is welcome! 😀
I’d like to be the first to comment on you post. I think it is very civil of you to open a post everyone from no matter what religion ans beliefs to say what they feel…
Firstly, I’m a real mormon, not one of these stupid, fake groups on the internet that call themselves mormons, and if you observe how they behave and the things they say, and really study the true gospel of mormonism, they alot of you on here or that may come on here seeking for answers, they you will come to an understanding and realization. Now I’m only 17, so I’m only a teenager, and I’m so proud to be a mormon. Yes, people may think we are expected of too much, sometimes i do feel that, so i will agree, but i believe at the end of the day, whatever is asked of us, is coming from god, and if we want to return to him (plan of salvation) then we do what is asked of him. No one is perfect, that’s where repentence comes in and thats where “feeling the spirit works”, the spirit is so important, it’s something that can help you in your daily lifes, it’s something that can uplift you, give you directions, give you answers if you seek them diligently. Now I believe that the church of jesus christ of latter day saints is the true church. No, i haven’t seen god, but whenever i felt like not believing anymore, or felt very discouraged, my testimony always kept me going, thats not a bad thing, im grateful that it did, i sometimes feel sorry for people that dont have the gospel, I have been so blessed being in the gospel, and all my friends that aren’t in the gospel, recognise the differences between my life and theirs, and they wish they were like me and could have the same blessings. I understand that there are many different religions and beliefs which I respect completely, but at the end of the way, the way I look at it, what are we battling and arguing for? The majority of religions believes in god, we believe in the same things but we just go about things differently, so what…that what creates different religions, and i believe is there was only one religion in the world, then there would be no challenges etc again (plan of salvation) I want to ask something here.. if the church of latter day saints wasn’t true and if the book of mormon wasn’t true, then would Joseph Smith as a young boy younger than me have a vision of jesus christ and God himself? and along with that have witnesses? which you can find in the book of mormon…and also if it wasn’t true, would he have died along with hundreds of other people and children? This is an open question to everyone on here, but before you answer it, I would like it if you really though about it, long and hard, and perhaps research correctly, and not go onto sites that gives false information about us. My answer to this question is no, he wouldn’t have died and started the whole religion by himself as a young boy if it wasn’t true. I know for a fact that i wouldn’t have died and risked my life everyday if it wasn’t true. Now I’m going to leave that there, I just wanted to post this, as I’m not sure who is still mormon, who is pretending to me a mormon, who is totally against mormons, I do not know, but I am open to questions that want answers.
Thanks, Jessica! We’ve heard a lot about young people leaving the church, so it’s nice to get some perspective from the young people who are sticking with the faith.
Well, you know what they say — on the Internet nobody knows you’re a dog. 😉 But usually when people self-identify as Mormons, I assume the really are.
As for your other questions, folks here are welcome to take a crack at them. She’s asking some sincere questions, so let’s see some thoughtful answers.
Jessica,
What, in your mind, are some of these fake groups on the internet?
I’ve been reading MSP for a while now, and I find the discussion interesting. I’m a church-going, card-carrying member, but it’s been a long long time since I actually used the card – even though I live in the heart of Utah Valley. I believe the central principles of the gospel, but I can’t accept everything that comes out of the prophet’s mouth as the will or word of God. No man is that perfect.
After bouncing around the bloggernacle for a few years, I figured out where I stand with the church. I cut the sleeves off of my garments (apostasy!) and put them back on, and I started going to church with purpose again. I teach gospel doctrine these days, avoiding the correlated material like the plague, teaching the historical background of the OT and studying the text *like it’s a text* rather than a riddle with a certain few acceptable answers. My classes get rave reviews, and for the first time I’m enjoying Sunday school.
Good for you! There are so many interesting things you could discuss in GD class — and I don’t just mean negative things. Mormon history and doctrine can be fascinating, and it’s a shame to confine your discussions with your ward to weak-porridge-written-by-committee if that doesn’t inspire you.
Hi Andrew, there are people that go about saying they are mormons but they are, and they do post false doctrine on sites like this, so I just wanted to point that out, that if people do believe the false doctrines that are posted, they may be by these particular people that call themselves mormons, so when seeking answers, people do need to be careful, because it’s so easy to pick up the wrong thing…there’s correct sites such as lds.org….
Chanson and not creative, you are both right, I have developed a great love for learning the history of the church, I’m in my final year of seminary, and only till now do i really appreciate what I’m learning, and only now do I take it all in. I’m studying D&C this year, and I have to say this is my favorite year!
Jessica — That’s great that you’re enjoying your studies!
I’m intrigued. If you’re talking about this site, I assume you know that the people here don’t usually profess to be believing Mormons, nor do they claim to be teaching Mormon doctrine. Can you give us some specifics? Are you talking about pro-polygamy blogs or something?
Jessica,
So, when you say “fake groups,” Main Street Plaza is one of those groups (even though I think most of us make pretty clear that we are ex, former, post or heterodox Mormons)?
I guess my next question would be: what do you believe the false doctrines posted on sites like this one are? What are other “fake groups” that pretend to be Mormon?
well I’m not really talking about this site, because I dont full know this site, only came across this site today, through a video of a women that claimed to be a mormon, but was abusing her child for making bad choices and it was very disturbing basically…
but yeah pro-polygamy and anti-mormonism ( a few people that i met have actually pretended to be mormons, but passed out false doctrines but then also made awful remarks, judgments about the church…
So, if someone does something that looks bad to the church (e.g., a woman has really unfortunate and shameful punishment for her child), then she’s only a fake Mormon? Or if a person disagrees with some position or policy of the church, then they are a fake Mormon?
Jessica — I see. You’re talking about the woman in the video abusing her child. I’m willing to believe that she’s not representative, but ultimately you can’t pronounce on whether she’s really Mormon any more than she can tell you that you’re not really Mormon. Anyway, she wasn’t pronouncing on Mormon beliefs, was she? (Sorry to admit I didn’t watch the video — maybe I should.)
On the Internet, in real life, or both? Personally, I’ve met devout believers who sometimes criticize [judge] some things about the LDS church. It doesn’t automatically make them non/anti-Mormon.
As far as false doctrines are concerned, it’s really hard to pin down what is the “real” Mormon doctrine on a lot of questions. It’s actually possible for well-meaning believers to make incorrect claims about doctrine unintentionally. The lds.org site doesn’t always answer every question, and could potentially even contain errors itself.
I’d just like to make another comment, and I don’t want this to come across offensive, and if it does, then I really do apologize, I really don’t understand why people feel the need to make horrible remarks and comments against Mormons, and this also go to “ex-Mormons”, ( and this is not to just people on this site, it’s really in to people in general), fair enough if you no longer agree with the beliefs and what we do etc but I don’t get what the whole point is? Personally, I believe that people should just respect other believes no matter what you may think and feel about them, we are allowed to believe different things, that’s the whole point…that’s why there are so many different religions in the world.
if the church of latter day saints wasnt true and if the book of mormon wasnt true, then would Joseph Smith as a young boy younger than me have a vision of jesus christ and God himself?
Jessica: there is nothing particularly remarkable or unique about Joseph Smith’s vision.
–D.Michael Quinn, Early Mormonism and the Magic World View.
I went through my life believing that JS’s vision was unique, special, genuine, and that competing visions were counterfeit. But if you want anyone to respect that opinion, you must acknowledge and consider other possibilities.
You must consider the possibility that all these visions–not just Smith’s, but all of them–were real, which means that the visions of the other teenagers’ belonged to churches and had spiritual beliefs that entitled them to visits from God, and that belonging to the LDS church isn’t really all that special.
You must also consider the possibility that all these people–every last one of them–hallucinated their visions.
And you must also consider the possibility that the visions of others were real, and that Joseph Smith copied their accounts and wrote a fake story of a vision he never had, because he wanted to do what all the cool kids were doing.
The fact that Joseph Smith claimed to have a vision proves absolutely nothing, Nor does his age when he claimed to have that vision prove anything, since, as Quinn’s book documents, it was something plenty of teenagers did, and writing about it actually earned them money.
I understand that there are many different religions and beliefs which I respect completely, but at the end of the way, the way I look at it, what are we battling and arguing for? The majority of religions believes in god, we believe in the same things but we just go about things differently, so what
These are excellent questions. I hope you will ask them of your parents, seminary teachers, Sunday school teachers, young women’s teachers, bishops and stake presidents. If the majority of religions believe in god, if we believe in the same things but we just go about things differently, and if the reaction to that is “so what?” why on earth is it necessary for the cojcolds to spend millions of dollars trying to convert the rest of the world? why does it have to tell people that if they want to be happy for eternity, they must become Mormon? why not just trust that god loves all his children and will, like any decent father, welcome every last one of them back to his home and his presence when they make that journey?
Unless you’re claiming the the people here at this site have made “horrible remarks”, then there’s no reason to believe we’d be offended by the claim that someone, somewhere has made a horrible remark about Mormons.
Please, can I direct your attention again to our FAQ?
Fab, agreed. But what is the relevance to this discussion here?
Oops. Found a paragraph that’s garbled. This is clearer:
You must consider the possibility that all these visionsnot just Smiths, but all of themwere real, which means that the other teenagers who had visions belonged to churches and had spiritual beliefs that entitled them to visits from God, and that belonging to the LDS church isnt really all that special.
Sorry–it’s early.
I’d just like to make another comment, and I don’t want this to come across offensive, and if it does, then I really do apologize, I really don’t understand why people feel the need to make horrible remarks and comments against Mormons, and this also go to “ex-Mormons”, ( and this is not to just people on this site, it’s really in to people in general), fair enough if you no longer agree with the beliefs and what we do etc but I don’t get what the whole point is? Personally, I believe that people should just respect other believes no matter what you may think and feel about them, we are allowed to believe different things, that’s the whole point…that’s why there are so many different religions in the world. Ok Andrew, so am not entirely following what you say, you’re making it sound as if it’s alright to abuse your child for being a child… that’s it’s ok to throw a 5 year old into a very cold shower and make him drink hot chili sauce for lying?? and the answer to both your questions is no, like i said above, underneath the video, it said she was a mormon, im not saying she was, but what im saying is that is shouldn’t say she is if she isn’t, because 1 that allows people to come up with alsorts of ideas thinking that mormons do this to their children (some may, i do not know, but it is NOT encouraged, we are against things like that) and 2, it’s obviously false if she isn’t. I know for a fact that people who hate mormons do things like this, that post videos and say they are mormons, look what they do etc this is my point….
and what let me to this site was, when i saw this video on youtube, there was loads of them, and some of them linked to this site… and then i came here, then thinking well is this site posting these videos..? these sort of things, give false impressions and really make you question things, the fact that they were linked to this site really made me question about whether this site by people that hate mormons and blah blah blah…
Jessica (re 12):
Holly (the same poster from 13) recently wrote an article that really captures a lot of my feelings about the question as well. There was another article here at MSP that asked the readers to answer a similar question…chanson just got in before me to link to it! I hope you will consider these thoughts.
There are a few reasons why. Firstly, the fact is that we all *were* very involved, very active Mormons. It was a substantial part of our lives for a significant part of our lives. But more importantly, it STILL affects many of us…we still have family and friends who are Mormon, and we are affected by what the Mormon church does with or to us, our family, and our friends.
re 16:
I’d like to make it clear that I’m not saying that at all. But it seems that you were saying that because that woman did this, she is not a real Mormon.
I was asking, just because someone does something despicable, does that disqualify them from being a Mormon (or anything else)? We deplore this mother’s actions, and we recognize that it is not condoned by the church, but we have to recognize that this certainly was a *real* Mormon who did this. And that mother, for whatever reason, believed that she was justified in treating her child in that way.
There are other examples. The Mormon church (among other churches) believes it is justified in campaigning politically against gay marriage. Most of us disagree, and disagree with the tactics used in the campaign. For us to raise awareness of these tactics doesn’t mean we’re “saying horrible things” about Mormons. We are pointing out what real Mormons are doing.
Yes, we have a YouTube channel of LDS-interest videos, including news and clips of people talking about being former Mormons. Aside from the child-abuse one — which we can discuss if you like — were any of the others objectionable? In what way?
Holly that’s great, and that’s also true, I do agree that many people had visions, I learnt all this in History at high school, Personally What I find remarkable about what joseph smith did, is the fact that 1 young boy started what mormons have today alone, it’s grown so much, and I believe that in the world today, and it grows harder and we face more difficulties and hard times such as wars etc, the church is growing faster and bigger by the minute, and that’s what fascinates me, I know that at my age or even at a younger age, I could never do that on my own, he eventually got followers who helped him, it’s just the fact that even against all the opposition they had, and all the deaths and murders that they faced, they kept going… Yeah that may have happened in other religions, but I just wanted to share a little of my testimony before, of what I think is fascinating about him.. that’s all..
Let me echo Holly’s advice here: “These are excellent questions. I hope you will ask them of your parents, seminary teachers, Sunday school teachers, young womens teachers, bishops and stake presidents.”
I’d like to add, however, that often these are not the best sources of authority for “difficult” questions, and may often be the worst place you can go. That doesn’t mean that they are bad, or dumb, or not inspired. It just means that they may not have the skills to answer the particular issues you ask about. That doesn’t mean that no one does, or that Mormons don’t have a robust set of resources for thinking critically about the faith. Look around a little harder than your local leaders before making any definitive conclusions about whether or not there are answers.
Yeah I agree Andrew, there are alot of things i disagree with, within the church, and there are many that i will agree with because of the blessings i’ve recieved… but coming back the gay marriage, I disagree with it, I believe you should be able to marry who you want to marry, I don’t think it’s at all alien like that there are gay attractions between people, I agree with it, and have nothing against it, I have many gay friends, I kind of understand why the church wont allow gay marriages. It’s simply because of the plan of salvation, he said that a man and women should marry and reproduce, and we have temple marriages, and we have that to be together forever and in order to get back to our heavenly father etc… that’s all I can say about that, as I’m only 17… so I’m not fully aware of that, but i understand why people disagree with that…
i mean i disagree that gay couples cant marry haha sorry what i said didn’t make sense…lol
It’s good to meet you, Jessica. I hope that you will stick around. You will find that many people who criticize the LDS Church actually care the most about it. That is why they won’t walk quietly away but hold themselves and their community accountability.
Accountability is a good thing, isn’t it? Unfortunately, you can’t have accountability without pointing out what’s wrong. Every time the church gets criticized, it’s an opportunity for it to become stronger and to become a better place for the members.
Have you by chance read the case files of the Mormon Alliance, Jessica?
Personally What I find remarkable about what joseph smith did, is the fact that 1 young boy started what mormons have today alone, its grown so much, and I believe that in the world today, and it grows harder and we face more difficulties and hard times such as wars etc, the church is growing faster and bigger by the minute,
There is really nothing that unusual about a charismatic person managing to attract followers, or even start a church. Methodism started only a century before Mormonism, but it has 70 million adherents, compared to Mormonism’s stated 13 million–which, as many studies demonstrate, is seriously inflated–60 to 70% of that number is inactive.
Nor is the church “growing faster and bigger by the minute.” It is actually shrinking. It is losing members faster than it can replace them through birth or convert baptisms, despite (because of?) its aggressive missionary work.
Hellmut, you’ve documented this phenomenon before–you can provide Jessica a link or two to to back this up?
I told myself I was going to stay out of this thread, because I’d really like to step back and allow believing Mormons to have their say. And that’s what I’m going to do (after leaving this quick disclaimer). But I would like to explain something about that infamous YouTube clip:
My impression of the “…and I’m a Mormon” ad campaign is that the LDS creative directors found a bunch of cool Mormons who agreed to publicly talk about all the cool things they were doing in their lives. And that’s great! But at the end of the day, what did that ad campaign become, really?
It became a showcase of attractive, interesting people demonstrating a bunch of positive personal characteristics that ultimately have next to nothing to do with being Mormon. The only Mormon aspect of the videos is found in the closing tag (“…and I’m a Mormon”) and in the title of the clips.
So, when I titled that video “Hi, my name is Jessica and I’m a Mormon” it was meant to be a tongue-in-cheek critique of that Mormon ad campaign. By which I mean: if it’s OK for the LDS church to slap a big ol’ MORMON label on a bunch of feel-good videos that have little to do with actual Mormonism, I think it’s fair game to slap the same MORMON label on a feel-bad video that features someone who’s just as Mormon as any of the stars of that LDS ad campaign.
It’s a downer, but it’s no less Mormon.
Shorter me: The whole point of the “…and I’m a Mormon” campaign has been to showcase a bunch of personal characteristics that have zero to do with being Mormon. But once the LDS creative directors slapped a big ol’ MORMON in the title of the clips, suddenly those clips somehow became pro-Mormon advertisements. And so here’s my question: Does that kind of manipulation bother you? Or does it only bother you when I do the exact same thing with a depressing video?
OK holly, that’s fine, you’re entitled to your opinion, but I think what I think, and my opinion isn’t going to change no matter what people may think or say…Yes, people are falling from it, I’ve been there, I’ve fallen from it once before, but I came back, because I recognize what I’m missing out on, and I feel sorry for people that don’t recognize what they’re missing out on and only see what they don’t agree with…again what I just said before about Joseph Smith is my testimony, it’s not a debate, it’s my feelings on what he did, that’s all, I’m not trying to push anything what you say to a side, but I’m sticking with what I’m saying, I don’t want any documents… It was my testimony, and it’s only going to grow and that’s all I have to say now…
haha chino you actually made me laugh, you just said that you was going to stay out of this and let believing Mormons have their say but then said after leaving this quick disclaimer. That doesn’t make sense, you said you wanted believing Mormons to have their say but then you’ve criticized what I said about the video….what the hell? lol
I’m not going to try to justify my point and feelings again…more than I already have done, I said what I felt about that video before, and it made perfect sense to me… I was only trying to make one little point, chino the answer to both of your questions is no, the only thing I will say to you now, is that I just don’t understand why people do that, that’s all, so again like you said, you was going allow believing Mormons to have their say? well there you go, I’ve had my say, and thanks.
Jessica – Criticism is one thing, but your h-e-double-hockey-sticks profanity really has no place here.
Jessica,
I’ll tell you why we can’t leave it alone. Many of us have lived our lives in the church, and found out information that it isn’t what it claims to be. Most of us, would have wanted to have that information available to us through the church. They don’t provide it, but rather say, don’t read it. We feel lied to. We feel misled and hurt.
Imagine you and your family go to a business. You put your trust in this business to be honest and ethical. Then one day this business comes to you and says, they won’t do what you’ve asked them to, but they aren’t going to return your money either. Also, they said that if you tell the rest of your family what they are up to, they will bring you to court. They still have your family.friends on the line, your family doesn’t realize what this business is up to. Wouldn’t you try to warn them?
We are trying to help people. That is all. For those who would want this information..that’s who we are trying to get it out to.
Hey, I’m a “real” Mormon. 😉
I think Jessica was attempting to state that the mother abusing her child was not doing so out of some rule book all Mormons have on child raising. This isn’t “Mormonism”. All through LDS doctrine, children are constantly being upheld as an example of what we should be like in our natures and that we should love and cherish them for who they are. I believe that falls in line with the example of Jesus in his approach to little children. So calling someone a “fake” Mormon is Jessica’s way of saying “That does not represent us. That is not what we believe”.
Jessica, just so you know, “Mormons” come in all sorts of shapes sizes and alarmingly differ from each other in their political opinions, doctrine, education etc. The world would be a pretty dull place if we didn’t all embrace it in different ways. I lean more towards a Libertarian perspective and embrace the doctrine surrounding the idea that we are here to learn and not have our free will compromised in any way. Commandments in our scriptures are a way of defining our moral code and assist in freeing us from having to question each moral decision but beyond what we SPECIFICALLY read as commandments. . . we are free to chose for ourselves what is right or wrong.
A lot of the “X” Mormons I have come across on the internet have been very hurt by something. Their experience in the church is one of guilt and frustration. They often talk about being judged by their friends, family and leaders. I cringe when I read this stuff because I know it has to be true for them. These are real experiences that have caused measurable harm. If I were to only believe in my faith based on the actions of some of those around me of evidence of it’s worth then I’d be hard pressed to justify my position. I have seen “Mormon” husbands beat their kids. I have seen them steal, a LOT of them are very shady in their business practices. The number of multi-level “scams” in Utah Valley alone are alarming. What I try and do is practice what I believe to be true. I try and be honest in all my dealings. I NEVER judge. Sometimes people leave the church. If they were my friends before they left then they will ALWAYS be my friends. I will never judge them or poor undue pressure onto them to come back. People have to be free to chose and to live with the consequences of their actions.
I have also seen a lot of people come back to the church. Usually its when they get a bit older and have kids and want them to grow up “In the gospel”. Awesome! Welcome back. But if I do “welcome” them back then they will ALWAYS be welcome to me. No matter what their current church attendance level is. It is remarkable to me how un-Christian Mormons can be towards each other. Its like they are reading the scriptures and not seeing the connection between them and how they should treat their fellow man.
Thats all. Fun little morning rant while I sip on my energy drink to try and wake up. OOoooooo maybe I’m not a “real” Mormon after all! LOL 🙂
Well can I ask then, how you have been lied to, misled and hurt? I haven’t been…. so tell me, how you have…and why exactly you need to help people? I don’t get it…
@Jessica: JS wrote several versions of the first vision. His account of what he says happened evolved over time. We have 11 documented versions, 3 of which he wrote with the others being second-hand re-tellings of what he verbally said.
The witness accounts are questionable. Like the first vision they were retold and evolved over time. They all later clarified they never physically witnessed anything but saw these things with their “spiritual eyes,” whatever that means.
As for how he died, he died in a gunfight in which he killed three people. He was arrested for destroying the printing press which was to print a very damning article exposing his polyandry.
I’ve done much research on JS’s history and he was anything but a decent, upstanding human being. He systematically took advantage of and subjugated people to his will for his own greed. He married underage little girls and women who were already married to someone else. He fraudulently represented himself to gain people’s property and money. He was convicted of several fraud related crimes (money-digging, running an illegal bank in Kirtland).
You are a bright young woman and I believe you will discover answers to satisfy your curiosity one way or another. When I was 17 these questions, which seemed to have no answer outside of what I was told in church, were what held me in thrall of this religion. It was a huge blow to learn that there were other, more reasonable, and natural explanations for all of JS’s claims, including how he authored the BoM. Eventually I researched my way out and found answers. Unfortunately, the answers I found did not support my childhood beliefs and I had no intellectual choice but to abandon those beliefs.
Good luck, Kathryn
Right, and as Chino said, the stars of the “I’m a Mormon” series aren’t “Mormonism” either. Like the negative video, they’re individual Mormons. So if you have a problem with individuals being held up as representatives of Mormonism, then please don’t ignore Chino’s question:
yes thats exactly what i meant william! and it’s not like im against people that aren’t mormons, I have hundreds of friends that dont agree with it etc, but the one thing I can’t stand is people being so judgmental about it, and being disrespectful etc, sometimes things just get blown out of proportion and get taken too far, and if people have been hurt by the church or whatever then fine, I’m not forcing anyone to change their opinions or anything, I’m just sharing what I think. I love how it says on this site that it’s a community for anyone who is interested in mormonism… when so far it seems like a few aren’t interested in it all, this post is for faithful mormons, and yet I’m here trying to battle my opinions, with people that are ex-mormons, that doesn’t make sense to me at all….
my opinion isnt going to change no matter what people may think or say
that’s a problem. Rational, reasonable people are open to persuasion and to having their minds changed by evidence. Rational, reasonable people let their opinions and beliefs evolve, as new evidence about the way the world works is brought into the realm of human understanding.
What you’ve just done is announce that you refuse to grow mentally or spiritually. No matter how old you get, no matter what information you encounter in school or the world at large, you insist that will always believe just what you believe now–only more so.
That’s not an attitude most people respect, and I think you can at least understand why. I hope that on reflection, you can admit that it’s not really how you feel.
I dont want any documents
where have we heard that before?
No, of course you don’t want any documents. Confronting facts might actually cause you to question, and questioning might cause you to have to change your opinion, and you’ve already told us you’re not willing to do that.
This is why a certain breed of TBM will often perceive any criticism of the church as a personal attack: because criticism might cause questioning, and questioning might cause them to change their opinion. And changing an opinion threatens their entire sense of self, because they’ve told themselves They Will Not Change Their Opinions!!!!
Good luck with all this, Jessica. Just so you know, the MSP community–and the ex-Mo community–is full of people who were once just like you.
The post and the welcome clearly state that this is a site mainly by/for former Mormons, but that we’re interested in having a constructive dialog about Mormonism and LDS-interest issues despite differences in belief. This isn’t a place for having a “battle.” If you’re looking to do battle, you’ve come to the wrong place.
Sigh..
Jessica, I didn’t learn these things until I was in my 30’s. I’d been on a mission, married in the temple, and had three children.
There were many things the church hid from me. And I’m still finding things out. Kathryn listed a few. The real problem for me was the Book Of Abraham. Do you know they have the papyrus for it? I never knew that. I didn’t know that it was found, I believe in 1969. I didn’t know that the real translation didn’t match up with what Joseph Smith “translated”. The Book of Mormon was also plagiarized from various books. Do a quick google search.
Have you heard of the Rosetta stone? It had been found and used to translate Egyptian…but news traveled slowly, and Joseph Smith didn’t realize it had been found. ( I assume) He was pressured to bring forth new scripture. So he bought a mummy and pretended to translate a funeral text.
This is a lot of information and I’m sure you’ve turned a blind ear to it. Most believing mormons do. It’s actually something we do psychologically.
It’s not my fault I was lied to. But my family treats me as if I’m a horrible sinner. They’ve shunned me..when I just want to live my life in an honest way. I live a higher standard of honesty than the LDS church does. That is certain.
Katherine, first of all, if you were about to die, and you were up against so many angry men that wanted to shoot you down, what you do? would you stand there and be like kill me now? or would you try and defend yourself? I think I would defend myself, even if that meant shooting 3 other men…and secondly, where did you get that information from, on him marrying underaged little girls and married women…??? I’m sorry to say, but I completely dont agree with you, I think you’re wrong…I’m sorry you didn’t get the answers you wanted as a child…and you’re right I will get the answers I want and I am bright, and I’m full of determination, but I really do not think there was any point to what you said about him marrying underaged girls, there was actually no need for that…Joseph only had one wife, called emma, who was an amazing women, and I really admire her, after everything she went through, she was such a strong example.
“Well can I ask then, how you have been lied to, misled and hurt? I havent been. so tell me, how you haveand why exactly you need to help people? I dont get it”
I can see how it would be confusing by me saying I’m trying to help people. You see, I would have wanted to know this information. I’m intelligent enough to get information, look at it, and make my own decisions. The church took that away from me, by only giving me pieces of information about it’s history. Things that in my opinion, helped me decide of Joseph was actually a prophet.
I made most of my life decisions based on what they told me. I served a mission, got married, had children…according to THEIR timeline. Not mine.
There are many people who are told not to question. I’m telling them…you SHOULD question. Question everything anyone who has any authority over you says. It’s your RIGHT to question. Someone who tells you not to read something, or not to question is hiding something. Make your own decisions. For those people who in 10 years would turn out like me..wishing they’d made difft. decisions, but had bad information…that is why I am here.
All I’m going to say to your comment amy is that no i haven’t of those things, I’m only 17, what do you think I’ve heard of? and that you said google it? I think that can a mistake in some aspects, as anyone can put anything and google, and people just believe it… alsorts of rubbish comes up on google, and you dont always get the truth on there….good for you that you want to live an honest life, thats good, so do i, and im sorry that your parents treat you that way, that shouldn’t happen, and im glad my parents didn’t do that to me when i fell from the church once, support from your parents is the best thing you can get, so im sorry you didn’t have that… and yes there are alot of people that alot more honest than people in church, but again no one is perfect…
Jessica,
Kathryn is right. You can even check Familysearch.org. They have Josephs wives on there…and 11 of them were already married to living men at the time.
I would suggest doing some of your own research, because this it a lot of information to hear in one sitting. Then you can go at your own pace and not feel attacked. I think a lot of us get overzealous because someone, like you, will actually stay here to listen…and we see a little hope. But we know the history..so want to prove it.
Look, you don’t need to take our word for it, especially if you feel like we’re backing you into a corner or something. Didn’t you say you’re taking D&C (Church History) this year? Ask your seminary teacher.
yes, you’re right amy! I question all the time, i probably get on their nerves! ha! i always question, and i will continue to do that! there are so many things i agree with, and other things i dont, I would say that I am also different to most mormons, alot of mormons do marry young, go on missions, have children young and do all the mormon stuff first, i would say even though i am a strong mormon for a girl my age, i still want alot of what they say “worldly” things first. Before marriage, I want to go to university first, and get my career, and see the world by myself. Once I have a career, then I will think about marriage and children. I never want to go on a mission, I love sharing my testimony but a mission isn’t for me. so yeah I do agree with you on some things.. 🙂 there’s always going to be things i wont disagree with in the church, but there are also things i will always stick with…
Family shunning is often expected when someone leaves the mormon church, but it still hurts. It’s actually my sister who won’t talk to me anymore. But she’s scared, I understand that.
You are 17..and I envy your position. I wish I could have been in a state to really research things. But please do…and if you choose to stay in the church, and it makes you happy ..that is GREAT! But just be informed…God will not punish you for seeking truth.
Jessica — good for you on questioning and finding your own way!
Anywayz, I’m off here now, I’m not going to sit here all night feeling like I have to defend myself and what I believe in. I’m just one person, and I’m just a teenager, and there’s loads of you… I just wanted to say what I felt and what I know, at the end of the day, we’re going to keep finding something else to argue about, and it’s not going to come to and end, and not come to some agreement, so I’m letting it go, and I’m going to carry on believing what I believe in strongly, and let you all do the same thing! Thanks.
@chanson:
The “I’m a Mormon” ads are fantastic. I love them. They serve to represent MY experience with Mormonism. We come in all shapes, sizes, cultures etc. It also challenges those in the LDS church to quit being so judgMENTAL over these differences. I have a beard, don’t always wear a white shirt and tie to church, don’t see the need to follow the letter of the law, hate Boy Scouts. . . and SOMETIMES I see people react negatively to that. Well get over it buddy because the church is embracing all shapes and sizes now. Better learn to get off your mansions above and start doing good with a pleasure down with the “real” people. 🙂
@Amy:
The plagiarizing claim is very shaky. Even to the point where BYU re-published the book that was written prior to the Book of Mormon to allow an actual side by side study. The two works could. . . with a real stretch of the imagination. . . stem from very similar themes but its not plagiarizing.
The book of Abraham.. . yea. I haven’t fully gotten my head around that myself to be honest. Its not something that stands up to scientific questioning. But then 14 year old boys finding gold plates, animals being hurdled into a ship to thwart a flood, burning bushes and “The living dead” it goes on and on. There really isn’t a whole lot of physical, un-deniable “Proof” behind ANY religion. If there were proof it wouldn’t be religion. We’d be reading about when Joseph Smith saw the Godhead in our history books.
But here is why that doesn’t worry me. When you embrace it. When you live the teachings. When you follow the instructions and really push yourself to serve others, keep yourself clean physically and spiritually, never EVER judge, be grateful for what you have and be humble enough to ask for more. . . awesome things happen. I love it. I am very happy and hope I can share THAT message to the world and beat the old school “culture” of Mormonism out of my neighbors in the process. 🙂
@Jessica: Listing facts that don’t support your beliefs isn’t an “attack.” There are some messages within Mormonism that are good, but often that message is bundled with things that are psychologically damaging and people don’t realize this until they are distanced from the church. When they do realize these things it is often a long process to get through it. Sometimes the result of leaving the religion is divorce, isolation, and other times it’s much deeper and more personal (ie: how victims of rape and abuse are often treated, see SWK “Miracle of Forgiveness” on this topic).
@Amy: I agree that the BofA is one of the most conclusive pieces of evidence against the church. The list of questionable things just goes on and on, and despite being out 10 years I am STILL discovering new things. Are you aware of the Kinderhook plates? Very similar to the BofA issues. The list of things just goes on and on and on some more… I am very sorry for how your family treats you. The message of love in the church is often conditional, I find, and a lot of people experience it as such. It is what happens when people believe their salvation is dependent on the independent decisions other people make.
Bye Jessica,
You’re a strong person, I think we all can agree on that.
@Kathryn: I have heard of the Kinderhook plates. It is so frustrating that I am still finding things out. I’ve been working my way out for about 3 years now…and the amount of information ..I just can’t believe it sometimes. It makes me physically ill. For 2 of those years I basically researched the church non-stop…that is all I got onto the internet for. I try not to come to places like this, because I HATE letting the church take any more energy/time from me…but if it helps one other person…lmao. I’m a missionary for the dark side I suppose. haha How great shall be my joy…right?
Jessica — Thanks for stopping by. While I agree with Kathryn and others that having your beliefs challenged isn’t an attack, I understand that it can be a little overwhelming the first time you wander into a group of ex-Mormons. Hope there’s no hard feelings. 😉
@ Jessica: I haven’t really seen anyone “argue” with you in a negative way. I know your “only a teenager” but I’m quite impressed by your spunk. I didn’t even know how to type when I was 17. LOL Its pretty bloody awesome how you have dived in here like you have. Don’t give up on that spirit or get discouraged. These “Arguments” that people are making have been debated by people smarter than us for decades. I find it curiously interesting but the day someone gets “converted” in a discussion like this to any other opinion is the day I eat my socks for breakfast. 🙂
William — so true, and thanks for being a good sport as well. Though, I’ll add that — while such discussions almost never convert anyone to any new opinion — they sometimes inspire people to think in new directions.
BTW, would you like us to add you to our site’s “Bloggernacle” blogroll?
Wow. Just… wow.
@ chanson
Sure you can link my blog. But. . . I don’t really discuss religion all that much on there so I’m not 100% sure its relevant to this site. I’ll leave it up to you to decide.
Thanks for the question, Holly. In the United States, we have pretty solid survey research that shows that at the end of the 1990s, we were losing as many members as we were converting. A couple of years ago, the Pew survey on religion showed that the trend appears to have accelerated. We are now losing 5 members for every for converts in the United States.
I have reviewed some of this data here.
In Latin America, a number of countries collect data about religious adherence in their censuses. Consistently, only one third of the people that we are claiming as members identify themselves as Mormons.
Also, Elder Holland has had to close 400 wards in Chile. Similar consolidation was necessary in the Philippines and would probably benefit the Church in every country of Latin America.
In Britain, the Church’s European stronghold, chapels have had to be sold in Scotland and the midlands. The Church has certainly not grown but shrunk in Germany as well, which is probably true for all of western Europe.
There may be growth in Africa. Bbell claimed a couple of years ago on BCC that the Cape region is South Africa is prospering.
I’m with you, Kuri.
civil discourse is all well and good, but how civil can it really be when someone tells you that there’s no need for the truth?
William,
I’m sorry, I didn’t see your post until just now. I agree that people can find happiness living by the church’s rules. I also know that people can find happiness, NOT living the church’s rules.
At one point in my life, church made me happy. But let me tell you the micro-managing drove me crazy! When it came to the point that I realized I gave, gave, gave to the church, and was absolutely miserable and depressed..I told God that I HAD to know if the church is true…that I didn’t care about the consequences anymore.
For me, I saw that the church required submission, unquestioning devotion, and complete honesty from me. I expected at the miminum..complete honesty from them.
When I realized this was not the case, it all fell apart for me. The truth can stand on it’s own feet. It doesn’t need me to make excuses for people who call themselves prophets. If I question what politicians are doing, or any other person in my life…the prophets should be able to withstand and pass the exact same scrutiny. I hold them to the same standard. And the church leaders failed miserably.
Many things never bothered me about the history..until I took away the bias and favoritism I showed people in the church. Especially Joseph Smith.
I think if you are happy where you are, that is great, I just could never be….I think because my mother lied a lot..so lying REALLY bothers me.
It’s no problem. We link to lots of blogs that don’t actively discuss Mormonism, as long as the authors are part of the LDS-interest community.
I certainly wish Jessica the best of luck, but I really hope that she’s able to properly deal with things like Joseph’s polygamy whenever she realizes that it actually happened.
Greetings. I am a semi-active Mormon who is fairly well-read and informed regarding LDS Church history, including the good, the bad and the ugly. In other words, there are very few surprises at this point. I’ll just comment on a couple of things mentioned in previous comments.
Kathryn, with all due respect, the whole “killed in a gunfight” bit is something I hear a lot these days and it is a rather misleading depiction. Yes, he had a gun that was smuggled in and yes, he used it to defend himself, but only in self defense against the attacking mob. Remember that he was not alone in that room. His brother was there as well as two of his most trusted friends. If I were in that position, I would try to defend myself and the others as well. There is nothing noble about allowing your brother and friends to be murdered in cold blood. The fact is an armed mob had converged on Carthage with the express purpose of murdering Joseph Smith while he was supposed to be under the protection of the Governor of Illinois and awaiting trial. Portraying it as a “gunfight” rather understates the case.
Chino Blanco, I’m not sure you or I fully understand the intent behind the “I’m a Mormon” ad campaign, but the church is well aware that misperceptions about Mormons abound. One study I read recently said that nearly half of Americans still think mainstream Mormons are polygamists. Many still confuse the LDS and FLDS or even the LDS and the Amish. IMO, the point of the ads is to address those types of misperceptions. As you well know, child abuse happens in the LDS Church but it is most definitely not a tenet of the faith, so associating it with the “I’m a Mormon” campaign is as misleading as the Prop 8 propaganda that associated LGBT people with pedophilia. I reject both as misleading and disengenuous.
@Jessica: Please read D&C 132! Polygamy is STILL church doctrine instituted by JS. Emma was JS’s first wife, and he eventually took 31+ more during his lifetime. I grew up hearing about the practice because of my great-great grandmother who married as the third wife to a 56 year old polygamist in the temple at 14 years old, then proceeded to have 5 children by him before he died of natural causes when she was still a young woman. This was NOT the FLDS church. She was married in 1888 before the first Manifesto that ended the practice in the US as part of the main church before the FLDS church split so they could continue the practice. Most young people are never told these things and I probably would not have learned of them if my family did not have the legacy of polygamy so intimately intertwined in its history.
@RobertW: Yes, my languages was slanted, so thank you for correcting that. My overall point was there is far more to the story than what is told in church. I appreciate you taking time providing the details.
William,
I wanted to add…I think the church definitely needs members like you. I think it can keep people in the ward sane. When I was working my way out, I was in the R.S Presidency, and was able to choose my own subjects to teach on. Instead of focusing on what the women “WEREN’T” doing…I instead focused on how much they “WERE” doing. I would share my weaknesses with them..(which rarely happens at church) to let them know..we ALL felt like crap at times.
I was worried about them, I lived in Utah and many of the LDS women there are using prescription drugs for depression. I wanted church to be uplifting..but it always seemed like you never did enough. Women would come up to me and thank me, they would cry, they would say how down to earth I was…ALL because I showed them that I was human. That’s all we are. If Mormons could accept the fact that no one is perfect and that we are all just human…I think church would be a more enjoyable experience.
RobertW — Thanks for joining the discussion.
With all due respect, I think the “I’m a Mormon” campaign does absolutely nothing to clarify these points. The folks in the ads don’t look like the FLDS, but not all polygamists dress like the FLDS. The ads do nothing to clarify things for people who are confused about the differences between the various branches of the Mormon tradition, nor do they really answer any questions about Mormons except “Do there exist some cool Mormons?”
Really I’m shocked not just at Jessica’s naivete, but at the negligence of those who have taught her for 17 years. She hasn’t even gotten a sanitized version of the story; she’s gotten no story at all. Like Andrew, I wonder how people like her can be expected to handle the truth if they ever encounter it.
@RobertW: There are a lot of misperceptions about the church’s history with polygamy. These perceptions have a lot of basis in fact, however. The church’s founder made polygamy doctrine and practiced it. Later church leaders publicly espoused the practice with the apparent belief that the more wives they had the more worthy they would be in the Lord’s eyes. Polygamy has never been updated in D&C scripture with even a footnote to clarify it is no longer practiced. It is reasonable to believe a casual onlooker would view mainstream mormons as polygamists. The assumption that they should distinguish LDS and FLDS is by digging up later “revelations” which aren’t in church scripture is unreasonable. Certainly the public needs education on this point, but the blame for their need to do this lies squarely on the shoulders of the church. The I’m a Mormon campaign does little to address this directly. The church is in a quandary. They don’t wish to draw attention to their questionable history by bringing up polygamy, but they also need to quell the assumption it is still practiced. They’ve chosen to do the former, therefore the public still holds their views with nothing instituted to actively correct it.
Im shocked not just at Jessicas naivete, but at the negligence of those who have taught her for 17 years. She hasnt even gotten a sanitized version of the story; shes gotten no story at all.
Is it negligence or willful deceit that is the cause of most people getting “no story at all”?
My vote is for the latter.
@Amy
I learned from my wife a long time ago that you serve the church at your own capability and when they ask for more you say NO. The church can only “micro manage” if you let it.
I try and be “honest” with everyone I talk too. Probably why I’m not teaching Elders Quorum any more and they put me back into Primary. LOL 🙂
If someone really believes in something and tells you that that is what they believe and it turns out that when YOU look into it and you don’t believe it. . . they weren’t lying. Being “intellectually dishonest” isn’t something most people can grasp. I don’t KNOW a lot of things in the church but I like to believe a lot of them. Wait did that make sense? I have had people tell me about their visions of this and that. . . I have heard theories of all sorts of wacky doctrine that people truly believe in. Good for them. But its VERY important to form your own beliefs, using your own methods and not feel like others are lying to you if they feel differently because. . . if you were to push all of your own personal opinions on others as “fact” or “I know” then you would be just as damaging as they were to you.
Oooo yea the prescription drug thing. Bloody hell. If your DEPRESSED about not living up to what you THINK is a minimum level of church involvement then BACK OFF! Don’t go taking DRUGS. Holy doolie. . . Take a month off. Go on a long vacation. Have others serve YOU for a change.
On behalf of all Mormons that I represent. I apologize to anyone who felt the pressures of serving the church to a point where they had to take prescription medication to “keep up”. That is wrong. People need to learn how to say no a little more. And when your feeling up to it. . . go serve again. It feels good. “Lengthen your Stride.” only works if you aren’t already stretched to the max. On the Iron Rod. . . not everyone is walking forwards. Sometimes you just need to hang on and catch your breath for a bit and let others help YOU.
wow, just wow!! i think you need to re-think that kuri! You have no idea who i am! I may only be 17, but I am not stupid and the last thing I am is naive, I think you need to get to know me before you can call me that, thats for sure! I appreciated the fact that once I’d let it go, everyone said bye, and was kind… I haven’t got a story at all? you’ve heard nothing…I have got a story, I’ve got a heck of knowledge of the gospel and of joseph smith, like I said, we’re all different, I’m gunna believe what I want to believe, and you can do the same thing, I don’t need to handle anything, you may have experienced the gospel differently in your life, but I’m doing just fine thanks, the gospel brings nothing but happiness into my life, and fine, if there are other things I don’t know yet, I will find them out myself “I wonder how people like her can be expected to handle the truth if they ever encounter it” well let me tell you right now, I will handle it just fine! I’ve handled worst things in my life rather than finding out that joseph smith practiced polygamy from people i’ve been debating for hours over the church!
@Kathryn
Yes, I understand and agree with your point about the dilemma the church faces with respect to polygamy. However, I think with all the publicity surrounding the FLDS recently, the church very much wants to say, “We’re not those guys.” In a subtle way, and without venturing into doctrine, the ads accomplish that in my view.
the last thing I am is naive
with all due respect, Jessica, if you can assert in all seriousness that Joseph Smith had only one wife, you are most definitely naive. And asserting that no matter what, you’re “gunna believe what you want to believe” does nothing convince anyone that your naivete is anything but willfully and intentionally chosen.
@Jessica
You don’t need to defend yourself against comments like Kuri’s. You are brave to come on a forum like this and state your beliefs. Life is a journey that takes you to places you never imagined you would go…and sometimes it leads you right back home. Everyone’s journey is their own, and everyone has their own timetable for learning and introspection in matters of faith or the lack thereof. Sometimes people expect that if you have the same information they have, you must inevitably come to the same conclusion they do. That is not always the case, but at the same time, it’s good to have your eyes and ears open so that you can learn from others with different points of view. Be true and honest with yourself, and you’ll be just fine, wherever you end up.
William,
I think it takes a certain type of person to be able to live mormonism “buffet style”.
My sister is kind of like that. She knows a little bit of the history but has told me she doesn’t want to know any more. She thinks Joseph became prideful and used his power to use women, but she believes the Book of Mormon is true. She has a lot to lose if she looks further. She’s stayed married to a man for 15 years, who is addicted to pornography and prostitutes, hoping to keep her eternal marriage intact…somehow.
I was fed information and believed I’d get a certain outcome. I think this is generally how people in the LDS religion are taught. You aren’t supposed to pick and choose. Turning down a calling is a sin. This is how I was taught, and what I believed.
However, being overwhelmed is not why I left the church. That was simply the catalyst. There had been many things that just didn’t seem to fit together quite right. I actually wanted to know the church was true..so I could stop thinking “what if’.
My daughter was going to be baptized soon and how could I stand up there as she “bore her testimony” that she “knew” the church was true. I could never say those words…and I could NEVER whisper those words in my child’s ear. I took a psychology class which really brought some disturbing things to light.
Anyway… losing your faith sucks, especially when you’re older. It’s difficult to figure out now, what I should have had figured out in my twenties. What do I believe…
Instead I trusted in someone else to tell me what I believed…but that is what was expected of me. When you are taught there is only one path, and that it is dangerous to leave it…you are pigeon holed into one way of thinking. I was far too trusting. I believed everyone was as honest as I was…and that is a mistake I will never make again.
Yes, but I think the strategy of just saying “we’re not those guys, we say they’re not Mormons,” actually makes people more curious to hear the whole story. If they bothered to be forthright about explaining the historical connections with polygamy and among the branches of the Mormon tradition, they’d probably drop out of the news more quickly. 😉
Sincerely, I agree with both of these points. Ah, to be seventeen again!! 😀
Take what we have to say into consideration, and don’t stress too hard about it if you don’t agree with us. We can offer you our experiences, but the captain of your ship is you.
I wanted to clarify my comment (61) especially with respect to RobertW’s comment 74.
I really am not concerned with Jessica coming to the same conclusion that I have. I am VERY aware of many people who know the critical issues of the church and still believe, have positive experiences, etc., I’m all for people maintaining positive experiences and building upon them.
But the thing is…one doesn’t have to come to the same conclusion about what Joseph Smith’s polygamy means for the church to be aware of that issue. If a person’s faith is tied to the avoidance or rejection of that issue (or of other issues like it), I fear for that person’s faith.
To Jessica’s credit, she’s never had reason to question the myth that JS had only one wife or many other things she has studied about in church-approved resources. I find her reaction natural and expected. People have pointed her to some very good sources and she seemed to acknowledge this shift in her belief about his practice of polygamy. I am sure she will continue her research as we aren’t going to be able to address all the doctrinal issues and questionable history here in this thread.
Jessica, stay strong and thank you for your discourse here with us. I never would have engaged a group of exmo’s at your age. I would have been way too scared!
@RobertW: Perhaps the adds to accomplish what you say to some extent. I cannot make any assumptions on that as I’m not part of the demographic they are aimed at.
It’s easy for us exmo’s to focus on the bad parts of the church because after we leave those are the things we need to reconcile with. For the most part I would say I had a positive experience growing up Mormon until I reached Middle/High School when we moved and I realized the group of peers I had as a child weren’t necessarily direct products of the church’s teachings but more a product of good parenting in that area. I also grew up with a sense of community with the ward musicals, talent contests, and plays. The later systematic dismantling of all those fun sources of expression made church suddenly become rote, and intellectually stifling. Even with my lack of belief I believe I would probably remain involved if those programs were still around. Unfortunately, the church is a long way from its “hey-day” and there is nothing appealing that it provides anymore that I can’t find elsewhere.
@ Kathryn
I’m sorry, I don’t know how to highlight. You stated that you would still be involved if those programs were still around. I kind of have that attitude as well.
The church has many good things…IF they would be honest and open about the history..and teach it in primary ..also if they would teach that it is a MAN-MADE organization, then I could say…yes, this is a good place to be, I would like to teach my children these values.
The only problem is, these values can be taught anywhere. All the good in the church, can be found in other places..and you don’t have to accept the bad along with it. I noticed that much of church was worshipping men. I mean, really, how often did we really study Christ compared to the prophets…there was no contest. Christ always lost.
Jessica,
I meant no offense. I didn’t mean that you have no personal story — of course you do, and judging from your behavior on this thread I’m sure it must be an admirable one — I meant that you were apparently never informed of the fact that Joseph Smith was a polygamist. Apparently nobody ever told you any version of that story, not even a whitewashed “faith-promoting” one, and I think that means some people have let you down. That’s all I meant.
Nor did I mean that you are naive about everything; I would have no way of knowing that. I meant only that you were naive about the life story of Joseph Smith. You seem to have been taught something about him that isn’t true (i.e., that he only had one wife) and not taught some things about him that are true (i.e., that he had many wives, much less that some of them were teenage girls and some of them were already married to other men). That’s not your fault, but it does mean that there are some pretty important things about Joseph Smith that you don’t know.
As for “handling the truth,” what bearing Joseph’s sexual ethics have on whether he was a prophet is something for you to work out on your own. Some people believe that a person who behaved the way he did couldn’t possibly have been a man of god; others don’t have a problem with it. But that’s not what I was talking about.
I was talking about the fact that Joseph’s polygamy is not something that should have been suddenly revealed to you by not necessarily entirely sympathetic strangers on the internet. It’s something you should have been taught about years ago so that, whatever you eventually decide it means to you, merely finding out that it happened wouldn’t come as any sort of surprise or shock to you. Again, I think some people have let you down.
RobertW writes: “Chino Blanco, Im not sure you or I fully understand the intent behind the Im a Mormon ad campaign …”
And I worry that too many rank-and-file Mormons assume that the rest of the world shares their awe for purportedly inscrutable phenomena.
The folks behind the campaign are on record describing its objectives. Are they to be trusted? Or is that sort of info ultimately unknowable?
@Chino Blanco
I was merely stating my opinion about the possible motivation for the ads. If I am in error and you have information from the source that clarifies the issue, please point me in the right direction and I will certainly look at it. Thanks.
This.
Losing faith is painful. If the church teaches people to have faith in easily demonstrated errors of fact such as Joseph only having one wife, then the church is setting people up to experience needless pain.
@ Kuri,
I had no clue that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy until I was 34. I went to 4 years of seminary, served a mission, and was married in the temple. It is not openly taught. I’ve heard that they talk about it more in the Eastern States, but it certainly isn’t discussed in the West. At least not where I’ve lived which is Idaho and Utah.
Amy — This clearly varies depending on the time and place. I took seminary in Minnesota in the late ’80’s, and they taught me that JS practiced polygamy.
Note, also, that I wasn’t traumatized by the information, and (as the proponents of “inoculation” will be happy to hear), it wasn’t a factor in my deconversion.
I didn’t join the church until I was 20 (in San Diego), but I always knew about it. I don’t know that it was taught, exactly, but I never got the sense that it was unknown or taboo either. Though of course back in those pre-internet days I don’t think the average Mormon knew many details. Just that Joseph was the one who started it.
@Amy:
Its not really buffet style. its more. . . choosing from a menu. You assume its all going to be good but you tend to go back to the menu items you like.
Separating from one’s husband in the LDS church due to something like Addiction to Pornography and prostitutes does not erase the ordinance that was done in the temple according to the doctrine I have been told.
Turning down a calling may be a sin. . . but is it THAT much of a sin? I mean. . . in the grand scheme of things? “I am not capable of fulfilling this calling right now Bishop. Thank you for trusting in me but I will have to decline this time.” I haven’t ever had to do it. I tend to do the callings to the best of my ability. Which means sometimes I just can’t do them at all and the Bishop has to find someone else. I’m 100% guilt free about it. I do my best.
I also never say “I know this and that to be true.” I believe is more than enough for me.
I teach Primary with a guy who is Lutheran. I kid you not. He goes to church to support his wife and is a really awesome guy. There is very little in the manual that contradicts his belief system and he does a great job. But as a point I always try and “enlighten” my kids with the idea that not all people believe the way we do and that we need to be respectful of that. There needs to be a lot more of that in my opinion.
I had already decided to leave the church before I found out about polygamy. I just didn’t think that God would treat people differently depending on their sex, or race. I mean..he created them that way….The mormon God makes no sense to me.
@chanson: I think it depends on the teacher. If your teacher was one of those who read all the Journal of Discourses when he/she was younger, then they’d mention all sorts of odd things. I was taught the Adam-God theory in Sunday school, about Jesus being a polygamist, Kolob, and all that juicy stuff the church now says was just speculation by early church leaders. Later I moved into a ward with a lot of converts and those things were never brought up. If they were the members would deny it was ever taught. I didn’t know where it came from until later. I thought it was just that crazy Sunday school teacher I had. In the 80’s I don’t think there were any statements saying that stuff shouldn’t/couldn’t be taught that wasn’t in the lesson plans. Now they say not to deviate from the lesson plans and purposely avoid mentioning questionable things.
@RobertW: Take a look:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700059008/Mormon-ad-campaign-draws-attention-in-9-US-markets.html?pg=1
@Kuri and Andrew
Yes, I agree that you can’t base faith on avoidance of unpleasant or disconcerting evidence that challenges that faith. I think it’s important to tell the truth, but that requires balance and the ability to put things into some sort of context the recipient can understand and process and to do it at the proper time.
When I introduce a friend to another friend, I don’t begin with, “This is John. Now John has had seven speeding tickets in recent years and once stole a bag of chips from the Gas-N-Go. He failed geometry twice in high school and committed several sins of a sexual nature.” I would probably start with the good stuff I admire about John. However, if the second friend asks me if it is safe to drive with John, I will feel compelled to tell her that John has a lead foot and remind her to buckle up.
As an example, my 10-year-old daughter recently asked me out of the blue if Joseph Smith was a polygamist. I don’t know what prompted the question. Perhaps it was something she heard at church. I answered matter-of-factly in the affirmative. I could tell she was a bit troubled by my answer, so I asked how she felt about it and if she would like to talk about it in more detail. She said she didn’t want to talk about it right then, so I left it there. Perhaps in the future, she will inquire further, but I felt it was important to let her process it in her own way and on her own timetable.
Kathryn — so true! My seminary teachers were eccentric, to say the least. They taught me a ton of interesting things, including not-exactly-orthodox doctrine (like the whole blacks-less-valiant-in-the-pre-existence thing — ten years after the priesthood ban was lifted). I wrote a bit about my seminary experience here.
I am mormon! and I am proud! and I am very happy to be a mormon! 😛 hehe
@Chino Blanco
I had actually read that article before and I think it basically supports what I was saying. Part of defining who you are is stating that affirmatively, but that also serves to help people understand who and what you are not. I would be shocked if all the “Mormon” headlines grabbed by the FLDS over the past couple years didn’t factor into the decision to allow mainstream Mormons to portray themselves as the diverse group of people they actually are as opposed to the more homogenous FLDS stereotypes displayed in the media. As the article says:
“Out of that research evaluating whether the advertising was effective came this really strong signal that the best way to dispel myths about us or get our message out to the world was to let Mormons speak for themselves.”
@ William,
I really appreciate this conversation. It’s so rare to be able to talk to a believing mormon who is open to discussion.
As for my sister, she doesn’t want to separate from her husband..she wants the dream she was promised in Young Women’s…marry and RM in the temple…and live happily ever after. Her entire afterlife hinges on her husband. That’s a pretty uncomfortable place to be.
And as for women in general…it is very hard for us to say no, especially in the mormon church. Next time you are at church and you overhear women talking..if you happen to catch a conversation where someone says “they can’t do something, sorry”…listen for the excuse. Most women HAVE to give the reason they can’t do it. We aren’t like men. It’s hard to focus your energy on only what you want to do, rather than what is expected of you. If you have a wife who can do that..you are a lucky man!
I think your children will be very well rounded. I’m wondering, will you teach them the history of the church? I think if they found out about it when they are younger, from a parent, it would be much easier to deal with than if they found out from other sources.
Robert,
I certainly have no objection to Mormons framing Joseph’s polygamy in ways that make sense to them. But hiding it, whether that means actively lying about it or passively neglecting it, sure seems likely to be counterproductive in the end.
@Amy,
No worries. Always fun to chat with nice people.
I think your sister has had that experience. Its done. Ordinance performed. She can now start to look after whats best for her spiritually and emotionally. But YOU also have to respect her decisions as well because from experience. . . the LAST thing anyone needs when they are faced with a tough choice is a barrage of more opinions and “have you thought abouts”.
Yea I’m pretty lucky in my marriage in a lot of ways. Count those blessings I guess. 🙂
Kuri, for the most part I would agree with you, although I’m not entirely sure we would always agree on what constitutes “passively neglecting it”. I’m probably not going to have a family home evening lesson on Joseph Smith’s polygamy, even though that might be a topic of interest and even import to me, because there are so many other topics of value to my children I believe are in line well before that one. Having said that, if their primary teacher taught them that Joseph Smith only had one wife, I would certainly correct that.
well guys, as for joseph smith having more than one wife, I have gone out and looked for answers myself! So now i know myself, and i did handle it very well thanks! as i understand the history of the church! he only had more than one wife because women back then needed protection, and they were pioneers, traveling all the time, as they were being pushed out, so of course many men died, so women were left with out husbands, and so not only did joseph smith marry more than once but many other men did also! and as for marrying under aged girls, we would class them as under aged in our time period, but back then, it was allowed, and it was commanded, girls had to marry young in order for protection.
As for joseph smith having more than one wife, I have gone out and looked for answers myself! So now i know myself, and i did handle it very well thanks! as i understand the history of the church! he only had more than one wife because women back then needed protection, and they were pioneers, traveling all the time, as they were being pushed out, so of course many men died, so women were left with out husbands, and so not only did joseph smith marry more than once but many other men did also! and as for marrying under aged girls, we would class them as under aged in our time period, but back then, it was allowed, and it was commanded, girls had to marry young in order for protection.
oops it posted twice :/ sorry
Jessica — When JS married my great-great-great-great aunt Nancy Mariah Winchseter, she was fourteen or fifteen years old (and he was in his late thirties). She was living with her parents, like other teenagers of the time. She didn’t need protection, and they weren’t pioneers at the time. I’m not saying this to insult you or call you naive, etc. Sincerely, we’re all glad you’re taking our remarks seriously and doing some research, but maybe it’s time to mull over this a bit calmly before jumping back into the fray.
Please don’t pounce on Jessica over the rationale for polygamy she laid out.
Jessica, I can tell you that what you are saying does not stand up to scrutiny. The motivation for polygamy was not to care for widows and orphans. Joseph claimed it was a divine commandment and the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. Critics claimed he concocted it to indulge his passions. You’ll have to decide for yourself which way (or another way) you view it, but it wasn’t to care for widows.
Jessica,
Actually the average age to marry back then was 21. But it’s ok that you went to an apologist website for information…that is a good start. This is actually the answer we gave to investigators on our mission. The truth is..it was white-washed. Polygamy was a commandment. And many of the women Joseph married were already married to living men, who were taking care of them.
Many women (especially the young girls) were told that celestial glory for their family rested on their shoulders…if they didn’t marry Joseph, not only would he be killed by an angel..but her family would not make it to heaven.
Now..if it was so important for these women to marry Joseph..if the church hinged on them….why don’t we hear about them? Shouldn’t we at least know the names of these important women? Why did Joseph hide his marrying other women from Emma?
I feel bad that you’ve stumbled on all this information in such a short time. I at least could find out a piece..look at it with one eye closed, then think it over before I went back in for more.
This may not be the best place to post apologetic “evidence”. I’d suggest researching slowly. Maybe even not returning to this thread…it’s too much in one day.
oh whatever, you all seem like you’ve all left the church, and now just want to rant on about what you dislike about the church, i’m not going to be a part of it, it’s ridiculous!
amy, i never went to a site, i went to my mum, and asked her exactly what i wanted to know, and then asked another few people, and i got the same answer off all of them, which is what i’ve just said to you… along with a few other things, which i didn’t actually put down, but what does it matter? whatever i will say to you, you’ll try argue it off, and i cant be bothered with you… i cant win no matter what i say, i cant have my opinion or say what i want to say with out a debate, 106 responses… from what? from sharing my testimony! it really just goes to show, it seems like you want me to accept things you say and agree, but then you seem not open hearted or minded to what im saying, actually im not even asking you all to be, i just wanted to share my testimony, but forget it, i cant be bothered now. I dont know why i bothered, it’s pretty pathetic that it’s actually got this far!
Jessica,
Those are basically comforting myths that Mormons tell each other. Whether one believes in the church or not, the truth is much more complicated. But I don’t really have any more to say on the subject. Best of luck to you.
yeah, im glad you dont, im not interested in what you all have to say now, im not coming on here ever again, i’ve figured out that you’re all people that used to be mormons, left, and have nothing better to do than argue, debate and rant on about the church, fine, you disagree with it, let it go!
Look, I’ve said this a number of times — we’re out to have a discussion, and it doesn’t have to turn into a “debate”. It doesn’t have to be about “winning.” You have your testimony, so that should be sufficient, right? You complain about the 106 comments, but you have to admit that a lot of them are by you, long after people here were happy to compliment you and wish you well on your journey.
@Jessica: There were actually far more men than women at the time polygamy was practiced and this statistic was true long after polygamy ended. We are not ranting about the church. You are being presented with facts and whatever you are reading about these women needing protection is, quite frankly, a lie. Why would a woman who is already married need protection? Why would teenage girls who were living at home with their parents need protection? They were not pioneers, and even if they were, what would they need protection from? The average age of marriage was 21. The average age of puberty was 15 then. Would you really believe people of the 1800’s would view prepubescent girls, or girls just beginning puberty as women ready to be married off and have children?
Well if it doesn’t have to be a debate, then why are people turning it into a debate? it feels like i have to defend myself, so yeah i think it is slightly about winning, and about being right, cause you all seem like YOU are right and I’M wrong. I do have my testimony, and I’m so glad i do! Yes, some of those people were very nice, and im grateful that they were, but there’s some on here that are really getting on my ass, so I’m done
Jessica,
I didn’t think I came across as trying to argue or prove you wrong. I have just been trying to state facts. Researching the church has consumed a couple years of my life.
I feel bad that you are having a difficult time because of all of this. Try to step back and not take it personally. I know it’s easier said than done.
RobertW (re 92):
I agree that if someone is introducing someone else, then it’s in bad form just to start revealing all of the bad things about them. However, in your John example, never do you advocate teaching false things about John. You may emphasize the good over the bad, but you never rewrite the bad so that it appears good, when it never wasn’t. You don’t ever say that anyone who would say anything negative about John is an irrational anti-Johnist who should be dismissed.
You may not foist JS Polygamy on your daughter unannounced, but if asked, you don’t shy away from it either. I think most of us would agree that you are not the problem and your approach isn’t the one that most of us here dislike. But the question is this: would everyone you know respond in the way you would? Would even most people?
Of course, that implies that everyone knows about Joseph Smith’s polygamy…which they may not, because not only is the church not teaching, but there seems to be this attitude that unflattering histories that come from people other than the church are “anti-Mormon” or are “attacks on Mormons.” I wonder where that comes from?
What others and I are saying is this just won’t do. Not only does this *not* help members, but it makes learning the real history all that much more painful, when it doesn’t HAVE to be that way. Certainly, growing an informed faith is a far more protracted process, but a coddled and uninformed faith will not withstand the windtossed waves.
me? I’m not having a difficult time here, don’t worry about me… I think all of you are having a difficult time, I actually feel sorry for you all, I really do, you cant see what I can see in the gospel, you don’t have what I have, and I don’t about the history, I’m not living in the past, I’m living in the present and working for the future! My dad’s side of the family aren’t mormons, and I get crap off them all time for coming to church, they have always lived in the past, and bring up history all the time, and cause debates and arguments, and it really does get on my nerves, it feels like some of you are the same, you live in the past and dont wanna let go…I’m just so grateful I have the life I have.
I dont mean to be rude, if I have been, but this is what I think. I’m leaving this here now, I would appreciate it if everyone would just leave it at that now, because I feel everything has totally been blown out of proportion. Bye
Jessica — I’m really sorry if you see this as an attack, or that upsets you that we respond to points you’ve presented us. Maybe it’s time to step away from the computer. Go out with your friends and tell them what jerks we are — it will be funny. 😉 Whatever happens, everything will be OK tomorrow morning.
Thanks! I will do :p
Whenever I find a piece of information that I have not heard before (but don’t know enough about the issue to challenge it…or don’t want to get into a debate), then I say, “That’s interesting. Maybe I’ll look into it later.”
And then I leave it at that.
But usually, I want to debate. I admit; I play to win. It’s not that winning is everything; it’s the only thing.
Jessica, I agree with chanson here. Deeeeep breaths. . . walk away from the computer and know opinions are like butt holes. Everyone has one. Most stink. K? 🙂
I’m taking breaths just fine thanks, and no i dont think opinions are like butt holes, i think that these opinions from some of these people are acting like butt holes, considering I’m pretty younger than them. It does stink! lol really bad! 🙂 thanks for being nice though william I appreciate it! 🙂
Good luck, Jessica! I apologize if we have caused you any angst. I’m a bit surprised at your mention of family who give you a hard time and try to debate you. I would think they would have mentioned polygamy, in the very least, since that is a source of contention with many people who view it as immoral and can’t reconcile JS’s actions with their personal beliefs. I don’t find you are being rude at all. I see you are being presented with a lot of things you weren’t aware of and contradict what you believe and what you are being told by others who were also given poor information. It is wonderful that you enjoy life, and you should continue to do so! If you ever need a place to just talk about nothing in particular I’m sure the community will be here to lend you a sympathetic ear.
@Jessica: Good luck, Jessica! I apologize if we have caused you any angst. I’m a bit surprised at your mention of family who give you a hard time and try to debate you. I would think they would have mentioned polygamy, in the very least, since that is a source of contention with many people who view it as immoral and can’t reconcile JS’s actions with their personal beliefs. I don’t find you are being rude at all. I see you are being presented with a lot of things you weren’t aware of and contradict what you believe and what you are being told by others who were also given poor information. It is wonderful that you enjoy life, and you should continue to do so! If you ever need a place to just talk about nothing in particular I’m sure the community will be here to lend you a sympathetic ear.
I suppose it would seem we are focusing on the past…but when it all boils down to it..the church hinges on Joseph Smith. If he was a prophet it’s true..if he wasn’t, it’s not. That’s why the history is important.
good luck Jessica..and remember what William said…it’s TRUE! 😉
It’s fine thanks, kathryn, I think I’ve learnt for myself who I would like to talk to and I’m sure that this isn’t really the place, as you can tell it only frustrates me, i don’t really need need to be informed on what I’m presenting myself as, again I started this off with my testimony, and I’m leaving proud and so ever grateful that I am a mormon and remaining as a mormon for life!
I guess that I’ve really got nothing new to add to this whole discussion, but I feel like chiming in anyhow. I’m not a Mormon, I’m not an ex-Mormon, I’m not a potential Mormon. I’m a neutral third-party in this whole situation.
Jessica, I admire you for coming on here and giving your testimony and being willing to stick around and defend your position. I also admire your willingness to take what you heard here and to investigate it more for yourself. I’d say that there’s always more than one perspective to things, and if I might give you a piece of friendly advice, I would suggest that you look further. Make your own decisions for yourself on this particular issue.
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr once said that “there is nothing more dangerous in all the world than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.” No matter what conclusion you may come to in your research, no matter what your belief at the end of the day, please do research. Arrive at your beliefs and conclusions through a combination of faith and education. Don’t accept anything anyone says blindly, whether it’s the people in the Church or the people on this board.
Another quote comes to mind: Goethe said “None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free.” Again, look for yourself. See what you can find. And if you feel as though this discussion thread is getting to be too much for you, take a break. “Discretion is the better part of valor”, or so they say. Finally, I’ll say that I think the people on here are genuinely interested in helping you resolve the issues that come up. When people are passionate about something it tends to arouse emotions on both sides, but I’m fairly certain that they intend no offense to you.
To the rest: thanks for the consideration you’ve shown in citing your sources and the links. I’ve got an obsessive interest in religion in general and you’ve been more than helpful in clarifying some points that I’ve come across.
@Andrew
I don’t disagree with anything you are saying. I actually understand it very well from my own experience.
I’ll take a stab at the Joseph Smith thing.
As a Faithful LDS member I read the teachings of Joseph Smith all the time. Most of them are fantastic. But then you get to the man himself. He was NOT in any way perfect. I have no issue with that. Apparently in his younger years he was a bit of a gold digger. His run for President just before his death was quite strange. But I still truly believe he was a Prophet. Not based on the man but what came FROM this man.
And I think that could be said for any Prophet. Ancient or modern. None of them would ever claim to know or comprehend all things. . . they are prophetic, are God’s spokesperson. . . but they aren’t all knowing and all powerful. They are Men. All men sin, all men make mistakes etc.
IF your testimony is based on Joseph Smith the Prophet. . . then that has to come by reading and studying his writings and the church’s origins etc. But if your testimony is based on Joseph Smith the MAN then. . . yikes. I’m sure he had an ego. I’m sure he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. I’m sure he had some really DUMB ideas that he couldn’t even himself distinguish from inspiration or just . . . ignorance. Its just so evident from all the writings of people around him. . . about him that there was both something special about him. . . but a lot that wasn’t ideal for a “Prophet”.
Polygamy. . . was never hidden from me growing up in the church either. We were always taught that it was necessary at the time and that it isn’t now. Just like it was necessary in times of the old Testament but not others. None of us can go back in time and be a fly on the wall to the actual TRUE reason why Polygamy was “brought back” to the gospel. I don’t think we are supposed to know to be honest. No faith required in knowing everything.
I always hear people discuss that “Women will NEVER hold the priesthood”. . . “These are signs of the times.”. . . “Did you hear that none of the people in were LDS!?!” You know what? YOU DON’T KNOW! Your just guessing. The LDS religion is not a democracy. . . it is not a free pass from all bad things. . . it is not justification for anything other than your PERSONAL choices. Anything else. . . if your name isn’t Thomas S. Monson. . . is fantasy.
Hi,
I don’t know if I would classify for this thread, but I recently realised and discovered that ‘anti’ mormons doesn’t really classify all the people that have left the church. I’m seventeen and have been a little angry or annoyed at some of the things that go on at church for the last year or so, and the other day my friends dad yelled at me when we got into a discussion about Mormons. He said Mormon is the most whitest and racist church on the earth, and that Joseph Smith was a gold digger/criminal.
This got me really angry and we got into an argument and my friend was really mad.
Anyway, this is when I realised that I don’t know anything because I went home and asked my dad what the guy meant, and he told me about Joseph Smith’s history and controversal things.
I decided to go and research for myself and felt overwhelmed by what I found! I wasn’t expecting that much information about everything. The church history interests me so much. At first I was angry, but now all that I have found makes me not hate the church, but want to become a church historian because the people defending Mormons aren’t doing a good job at all!
So, I don’t know if this classes me as entirely faithful because I see huge problems and ‘cover-ups’ but it just makes me more curious to go deeper and find out more!
I love the church for what it’s done for me. And to think only a year ago I wanted out because I felt guilty for having a sip of beer at a friends party. I thought, they can’t tell me what to do
All this changes everything now. I realise that it’s not all just trivial do this and do that obey me because I’m I said, stuff. I want to help the church into a better light.
Ok, this might all sound really naiive that I think I can find answers and prove people wrong or whatever, but it excites me!
Joseph Smith may have done bad stuff, but I’m sure heaps of things have been exaggerated, twisted, etc. Mormons need better researchers or I don’t know lol something.
So, there it is. I love the church, flaws and all. I’m curious to find answers to the millions of question I have.
Sorry to give my whole life story. lol
Liz
William,
how do you distinguish between Joseph Smith the prophet and Joseph Smith the man. (in fact, this question is generalizable to any prophet. When are they speaking as a prophet? When as a man?)
Is it when they do stuff that sits well with you? 😉
Liz,
Your story moved me. I don’t think it’s fair to say that everyone who defends Mormonism is doing a poor job…after all, there are many church historians who write pretty good books and have a perspective somewhat similar to yours…you should look into reading Richard Bushman’s stuff…like Rough Stone Rolling
@Andrew, I don’t know. I have actually met President Monson on a number of occasions. He even performed the temple sealing for my wife and I before he was a Prophet. You will never meet a nicer, kinder more genuine man but when you just sit with him for a while and he casually talks you realize his hobbies and interests are quite different to one’s expectations. He likes professional wrestling of all things! So yea. . . I don’t know.
William,
But that’s the thing…no one knows. I think people can be nice, kind, and genuine without being divinely inspired. I’m not a doctor, but those things don’t seem to be solid criteria for prophet-dom.
Liz,
I applaud your intellectual curiosity, your realistic worldview with respect to the church and its people, and your desire to get to the bottom of things, so to speak. My (unsolicited) advice to you would be to read anything and everything that piques your interest without fear, apology or guilt, but make sure you never let anyone else tell you what it all has to mean. That is something you have to grapple with and then come to your own conclusions, but you have to do it in that order. If you simply research in order to support conclusions you have decided on in advance, your grappling will be in vain and you will miss a lot of exciting new discoveries and perspectives. It’s a long tough road with an overwhelming amount of information to consume. I’ve been on that road for many years and there’s no end in sight. Good luck to you.
You’re probably right, Andrew. I think I got carried away there! I just feel so bad every time I see Mormon ‘defenders’ getting ripped apart so badly. It makes me think. if only… I’ll go look him up. Thanks.
Thanks, Robert. I kind of feel bad that only a little while a go I would just listen and accept all the things I heard from my church friends about how anti Mormons are bad etc..your comment was nice because my mom doesn’t exactly think what I’m doing is right and my church friends don’t especially want to hear about any of my ‘findings’ even if I’m not saying things in a bad way. It was good to get this out! 🙂
What you said was true about reading things without making apologies but that is so hard. I try to keep a openmind but it’s hard to let go of somethings that I think are facts. It’s hard to know anything!
Lucky my dad is so cool. I don’t know how some people that leave the church can deal with their families not speaking to them anymore. That’s one thing that would scare me.
I just want to say that I know where Jessica is coming from because those answers about polygamy are the same I am told and that I told my friends dad too. Half the things I find out come from the churches own website anyway lol .
I should probably apologize to my friends dad even though he wasn’t very nice about the way he told me things. I suppose I can’t argue for something if I don’t even know what I’m talking about.
Thanks again 🙂
William,
My view of Joseph Smith was pretty similar when I was a believer, although I didn’t really divide him into “the man” and “the prophet” so much. I just assumed he was a flawed man and a prophet. That’s certainly no different from the Biblical prophets, who were a pretty weird bunch if you take the stories at all literally.
Liz,
I second the recommendation of Rough Stone Rolling. It was written by a historian who’s a believer but doesn’t shy away (much) from examining Joseph Smith’s flaws as well as his good points. It’s a very good place to start if you’re interested in learning more than about him than you have in church.
Liz,
Whatever you decide to do, remember to do what’s best for you. That sounds probably trite but as Mormons we are often so concerned to serve that we forget to take care of ourselves.
Some ex-Mormons make a similar mistake when they are trying to relive their teenage years and get themselves into trouble.
There is a lot of power in self-interest. As long as you keep that in mind, you can deal with any confusion about religion or life in general.
OK don’t take this the wrong way Liz, but if you’re reading all that ANTI mormon stuff and drinking beer at your friends parties then that is not exactly what mormons do! I’m a mormon and I’m nineteen and I want to say that the church is true. I think that heaps of the facts have been twisted around and if you go looking for bad stuff then of course you will find it! People at college tell me false stuff about mormons all the time. You can’t believe everything you hear.
Don’t let these people here ‘taint’ your beliefs any further. what’s left of them. You should go and read the church website they have lots of good stuff. You can’t believe that Joseph smith was a bad man but still a prophet. That doesn’t even make sense.
Ask your seminary teachers questions or something. Or your parents because their opinions aren’t trying to sway you to their side.
People at college tell me false stuff about mormons all the time.
I’d love to hear one example of the lies you’ve been told. Just one.
I have way more than one example. I have to hear them all the time but people don’t even know the facts, they just say what they hear and believe anything people tell them! Like that Joseph Smith had heaps of wives that he slept with. And that Mormons do weird as physco crap in the temple. I don’t hate gays and I’m not racist, neither is the church there are reasons that they do everything they do. Joseph Smith didn’t just do stuff and say things for no reason?
Dayna,
How do you know what is a lie and what isn’t? Aren’t you just defending the one side that you’ve been taught your entire life? How can you be sure that your information is correct if you don’t know both sides?
You are defending a man you didn’t know, because of information you received from those you trust. We tend to believe everything we are taught as children…it’s unfortunate really.
If I was to listen more to ‘the other side’ then that’s how you start to be poisoned. that may sound extreme and I don’t need anyone yelling at me, but what I learnt is that that is the beginning of apostasy and where it all begins. I think that’s why so many people fall away is because they listen to that first bit of info and look at anti Mormon things and then wonder WHY their faith has gone? I haven’t had a huge revelation or anything, but I’m striving to! I still believe the church is true and that God will reveal this to me somehow in his own time not just whenever I want.
If I started studying things that go against the church then how can I be ready to find out anything!
Dayna,
I understand where you are coming from…believe me. I didn’t study anything that wasn’t church sanctioned until last year. I decided to leave the church based on church material…this was before I read all of the history. The point is…we should never be afraid to question…EVER. When people are told not to question authority, that is when people with power take control over you.
I know you are taught not to look at any of this “anti-information”..I know it is scary. The truth is, it’s not anti..it’s just history the church doesn’t print any more.
God would not want us to turn off our brains.
I remember I watched the PBS special on mormons…I was still active then. And a lot of the information was completely new to me. I’d never heard it before. But I decided to embrace it…you shouldn’t hide from history..it’s the truth..so what!?!?! It’s what makes life interesting.
But the more I read…the more I saw contradictions. I question everything. We should not make decisions blindly…that’s all.
Ummm… are introductions over? How did this end up being a polygamy debate?
Oh Seth..you know..one person says the word polygamy and it’s all downhill from there.
I assume this is a rhetorical question, as you can read the thread of discussion for yourself. 😉
The truth should withstand scrutiny.
Dayna, I do have one question, if you ever come back.
How could reading something change your views so drastically? Usually if I have a bias…I take everything with a grain of salt if it doesn’t coincide with what I already believe…this is human nature.
You don’t agree with what your fellow students tell you..so why would reading anything change your mind, if you KNOW and could prove it wrong?
Why would this information affect people like it does? It’s because it’s the truth..that’s why. That’s the only reason it effects people. And…if it’s the truth..shouldn’t we be seeking for it??
If the church wasn’t true…would you WANT to know..that’s really the only question you have to ask yourself. If you wouldn’t want to know..then don’t look into it. If you want to know if the church is true…seek truth out..in all it’s forms.
I think the truth should withstand scrutiny too but everyones idea of scrutiny is different. Forgive me for using exclamation marks to make my points earlier, but I just start feeling fired-up that people think just because you haven’t studied stuff outside of the church means you don’t know anything about the church.
If you don’t have a problem with your beliefs then why should you look into problems that other people present about ‘your’ beliefs is all that I’m studying. Why do people at school care what I believe, I mean. They don’t have to.
And Isnt that what faith is all about? Believing blinding or something like that. To be honest, Amy, you’re right. It is quite scary to think that there’s all these ‘facts’ and information floating around out there. One can hardly know what to believe.
I posted that before I saw what you said.
I do care if it’s the truth, I want to know, that’s why I pray and read the scriptures. I want to get answers from enlightening sources. I don’t think it can help a testimony that I’m trying to make if I already go looking for evidence that the church isn’t true? How will that help me. Once I know for sure, then I can look at anything and know that the church is true so nothing I read then will matter, I guess. 🙂 I do think truth is important, though it may not sound like it. It just depends who is telling me the ‘truths.’
Dayna,
I know..I really shouldn’t come to these boards. You know, my sister said the same thing about her beliefs..she is happy with them, so she doesn’t want to know the information.
As for me, I would have wanted to know…just so I could say..my decisions were my own, and not made because someone I didn’t know thought they knew what was best for me. That’s really all I want for other people. To have the chance to make their own decisions. And it’s your decision to decide if you are happy in your belief or not…and really, everyone should support that.
I have to tell you, my niece found out a lot of the information and thinking about leaving the church. Then she had a spiritual experience..and she is happy with the church. She doesn’t believe it is the one true church, but she is happy in it.
Also, I’ve had spiritual experiences while I was active..and a very spiritual one the week I decided to leave. Maybe..God leads us to where we will feel closest to him…we are all different, so he would talk to us in different ways, and through different churches.
I guess you’re right about making your own mind up by youself. I don’t feel that people(church) are telling me what decisions to make, though, and that it is my choice in the end. Just like my sister who met her boyfriend who she is getting married to and now decided that the church isn’t true and that Mormon history isn’t true. She doesn’t try to tell me theses things she’s ‘learnt’ but I’m just saying I don’t think she would have thought that if she wasn’t marrying him and reading all these things about how the church isn’t true. I want to give it a chance to be TRUE first.
Like you said, I do think other things and churches can be true for different people, though. I wonder why people leave after having spiritual experiences thoufgh, especially when that is what I want.
Changes in belief can put huge amounts of stress on family relationships. I’m glad that your sister isn’t trying to pressure you to change your beliefs to match hers. It’s important to remember that disbelief isn’t an attack on faithful family members or a rejection of the family. Remember that you love and value each other. Also, in the interest of family harmony, beware of jumping to hasty conclusions about her boyfriend.
So many people have spiritual experiences..in and out of the mormon church. When you have one, and then discuss it with someone of another faith, you will see that they are very similar, and theirs was just as strong and powerful.
I know it has to be hard when a family member leaves. And I know that the only reason my sister doesn’t really talk to me any more is because she is scared to find things out..but also, scared for my eternal soul.
But I didn’t leave on a whim. I mean..I’d gone through the temple..my childrens’ eternal souls were at stake, as well as my own. I wish you could be happy for your sister, because she is happy. I wish my sister could be happy for me, because I am happy. But because it is so difficult to see the other person’s pt. of view…it causes a lot of heartache and conflict.
Please try to stay close to your sister. No matter what, family should come first.
Chanson, what you said was very nicely put and true about family stress on relationships, but in all honesty her fiance never liked mormons and was always quite happy to say so. Anyway, I’m not going to come back because I shouldn’t even really come on these things I only end up rubbing people the wrong way.
It’s good to know that there are people out there that aren’t hating on the church even though they have left.
Thanks and sorry.
Amy, it is sad that your sister can’t be happy for you and I guess it’s hard to see things that I do until they’re pointed out in others.
Everything is so much easier though when people have similar beliefs. I worry for my sister and want to see her when this life is over. That is what scrares me. Growing up sucks
Aww.. Dayna..your gonna make me tear up…:)
My sister and I were best friends..and she just kind of dropped me, so anything on this subject is very close to home. I was wondering why you were here..and I can see that it’s because of love for your sister…you do want to see where she is coming from, and are trying…that is a very caring thing.
If you feel that is detrimental to you right now, I would say, do what you’ve been doing …work on your testimony. If you don’t need to know the history…it’s understandable. I’m sure your sister will continue to respect your wishes in that area…and you know what..growing up DOES suck!! 🙁 But I know this life is well worth the ride…
Don’t be scared..a loving God could never hurt you..or keep you from those you love.
Good luck hon!!
It was only sorta rhetorical Chanson. The way this blog’s comments are set up, you read the last page of comments first. It’s kind of second-nature to me to scroll down the page after reading a new post and glance at the comments. After reading all the nice threadjacking drama with Jessica, I’m not really sure I want to read the rest of the comments.
(warning: long bio ahead – I got carried away)
Anyway, my name is Seth. I grew up in the LDS Church. My father converted to the LDS Church from a stance of agnosticism while attending BYU as an undergrad (I’ve never gotten a clear answer from him why an agnostic guy from South Dakota would pick BYU of all places). He also did his masters degree there before heading off to med school in native South Dakota – by that time he’d already married my mom and had me.
My mom grew up in a mixed faith home with a Protestant father and a Mormon mother. She attended both churches up through high school without being a formal member of either. She decided on Mormonism one Sunday while attending her dad’s Protestant services – during youth class they were reciting the part of the catechism that states the doctrine of the Trinity and she found herself physically unable to say it. After that, she went home and told her dad she’d decided to be baptized Mormon. She met my dad at BYU in a karate class where he kicked her in the chest – things progressed from that point.
After med school and an internship, my dad joined a small rural practice in Richfield in southern Utah. We lived there about six years – enough for me to clear elementary school and middle school. I didn’t particularly like living there (although I look back on it with a lot of nostalgia now of course), when we moved to Provo, I was just as happy to be starting high school somewhere else.
I went through high school, completed seminary, finished off the Eagle Scout award, joined swim team, and did the whole Aaronic Priesthood thing like most faithful Mormon boys. I was raised in a fairly strict orthodox Mormon household. My dad is a pretty hardcore member of the church. He takes religion seriously and wasn’t shy about enforcing the behavioral aspects. Not that we kids minded too much. We all agreed that religion ought to be done that way – never occurred to us that you’d do it differently. We were kind of surprised to find Mormons in Utah who actually play around on Sunday, go waterskiing, watch football, etc. Regular family prayer, home evening, near 100% church attendance, all that good stuff.
I was a pretty strong reader of the scriptures (my dad paid me $20 every time I finished the Book of Mormon or Doctrine and Covenants, $15 for the New Testament, and $10 for the Pearl of Great Price – he never even bothered to suggest the Old Testament). By the time I entered the MTC, I guess I’d read the Book of Mormon about 8 times clear through, 4 times for the D&C, and probably 6 times for the New Testament and Pearl of Great Price… maybe more, hard to remember… I read the entire standard works during my two month stay in the MTC (while ignoring my Japanese lessons – which I wasn’t really getting anyway). I also read Marvelous Work and a Wonder and Articles of Faith while there and remember thinking the arguments were pretty awesome – I’d never really gotten into stuff arguing the case for Mormonism before.
My mission was a good experience for me, despite a lot of stuff happening that might make others feel otherwise. I never was a very successful missionary – mostly because I was absolutely terrified of street contacting (I almost threw up the first time I tried). I avoided it, made excuses, found other ways to occupy my time, visited inactive members (actually had a pretty good success rate reactivating people), and visited with “eternal-investigators.” I had a soft spot in my heart for the “tough cases” – which probably explains a bit why I hang out here.
I loved my mission and I loved the Gospel. But I also was well aware of how I wasn’t measuring up to expectations, and had plenty of time to feel equal measures of guilt at not doing as well as I knew I could, and resentment at the artificial system I was working under, and ethically deficient “successful” missionaries I was working with. I had a lot of time to think in Japan. I thought a lot about what was good and bad about how we were doing missionary work. The fact that our mission was a pilot program for a new and innovative method of proselyting that basically threw the “white handbook” in the storage drawer probably encouraged that kind of independent thinking. I also saw for myself that General Authorities don’t always know what they are talking about and do not always behave well. I learned that I had an opinion of my own, and that it could be just as valid as anyone else’s – including my poor exasperated mission president (a man I still greatly admire to this day). I saw missionaries crash and burn, saw them lose their enthusiasm for the church. Saw others fire themselves up and get excited about the church for all the wrong reasons. And saw other missionaries who were just basically decent and impressive human beings. Takes all kinds.
Came home with my eyes open to a wider world, and wider reality about the Church. I didn’t take things for granted anymore.
During undergrad at BYU, I discovered Hugh Nibley and his stinging critiques of the deficiencies of LDS culture really resonated with me in a big way. I always felt a certain shallowness in a lot of the religious behavior and worship in Utah. Part of this was valid observation – another part of this was my own sense of self-importance as a young man. I think from my mission on, there was never a time when I wasn’t very aware of the hypocrisy, shallowness, and hubris of my religious community. Just the same, I never questioned my commitment to the Restored Gospel. I questioned my commitment to Utah culture (which I was growing heartily sick of), my dad’s way of doing things, and sometimes even to the LDS Church itself, but my devotion to the Restored Gospel was never at issue.
While at BYU, I got married to a faithful California Mormon, had my first child (a beautiful daughter), and set my sights on law school (a popular – if often misguided – choice for Political Science majors who have no clue what to do with the rest of their life). I got accepted to Wyoming and packed up the Uhaul knowing I would miss Utah dearly, but not one bit sorry to put the stupid culture behind me.
I loved church service in Laramie Wyoming. The members were excited, charitable, giving, warm-hearted, and greatly accepting of people from all walks of life (something I’d always felt lacking in my Utah experience). I served as Executive Secretary to one of the most awesome bishops I’ve ever encountered. I learned how a ward works – and is SUPPOSED to work – from that man. We still send them Christmas cards, and I feel kind of jipped that I never managed to set up their daughter with my kid brother who was at BYU by this time.
I discovered the bloggernacle in law school and it was a total religious epiphany for me. This was the Mormonism I’d been waiting my whole life for. Debate, varied opinions, and intelligent people who relished digging up everything they could about Mormon history, theology, and its controversies. I dove in wholeheartedly, and was a regular commenter on all the major blogs. It was fantastic.
After law school, we left Wyoming and set up to take the bar exam in Colorado. After barely passing, I hunted around for legal jobs and got skunked. While moping around and attending luncheons with the local bankruptcy attorneys (an area I had interest in) one of them suggested that I just hang my own shingle and start a law practice to generate some funds in the meantime. I ran with the idea, and five years later, I’m still here and still acting as the legal equivalent of a Catholic Priest absolving people’s sins.
In the meantime, I’ve kind of said all I have to say in the bloggernacle. I may go back sometime, but for now I’ve moved on more or less. A few years ago, I got in a major knock-down drag-out debate with a bunch of Protestant scholars, and pretty much got my hat handed to me. Far from shaking me or discouraging me however, it had the opposite effect, and fired me up to do a better job explaining my faith and defending it. At this point, I started frequenting Evangelical blogs – some anti-Mormon and some less so. Also started debating secular critics of the Church.
Which pretty much brings me to now. I absolutely love Mormon theology. I find people like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young to be absolutely fascinating and powerfully compelling men. A lot of the heroes people pick are honestly so freaking boring. Bland, milquetoast wallflowers who don’t have enough charisma to even suggest anything meaningful. I used to kind of subconsciously feel this way about LDS heroes.
Until I actually studied their lives. Wow… I just find it absolutely delicious that God would manifest himself through men so controversial. This is not the “safe” religion I learned in seminary. This is powerful, potent, mind-bending stuff. I think it has the potential to change the way humanity thinks from here on out through the ages. And I get to be in on it – on the ground level. It’s an absolute privilege for me to be a part of this religion, and I can’t wait to see how it shapes up.
Sorry for the essay. Just felt like sharing I guess.
I know what you mean. We’re going to make another round of tech changes soon, and I’ll be voting for all the comments to be on the same page with the thread, if possible.
Thanks for taking the time to write such a terrific bio!! I already knew some of that, but it’s interesting to read the whole story, and how your real-life experiences fit in with your Internet interests.
I know I’ve posted way too much today..but Seth I thought your intro was great.
You know, sometimes I wonder if I had moved out of Utah sooner, would I have had the desire to dig deeper into the church history, I may still be in the church. I mean, I’m thankful for the road I’ve been on and wouldn’t change it..but moving out of Utah sooner…now that, I should have done. Utah culture drove me crazy…I hated living there.
Very interesting to see someone who knows all the history so fired up and excited about it..lol. I like that. I do like hearing all the sordid details of the past..especially when it has to do with my family members. It makes grandma seem SO much more tangible/human when I know she got knocked up by her neighbors husband…etc.
Yeah, my great, great, etc. grandfather on my mom’s side was Aaron Johnson. He was one of the Nauvoo polygamists and was basically like Brigham Young’s right-hand man. He made the trip across the plains about a dozen times leading new wagon trains. He had a genius for organization and founded the city of Springville south of Provo. He had something like 13 wives (and one local Indian woman who they saved from being dragged to death from a horse by her husband and took into the household to care for).
He had to go into hiding during a federal crackdown on polygamy, and was accused of murdering a couple of collaborators while up there in the mountains. Never convicted of anything though.
Just wanted to say welcome to the faithful members. Thanks for sharing your stories.
PS. for technical changes, from my phone, I see all the graphics in the array whenever I hit this site. I like the rotating graphics, it just makes it harder to read on my phone. I suspect there isn’t an easy way to fix this, but I wanted to mention it just in case.
I was a pretty strong reader of the scriptures (my dad paid me $20 every time I finished the Book of Mormon or Doctrine and Covenants, $15 for the New Testament, and $10 for the Pearl of Great Price he never even bothered to suggest the Old Testament)
And yet, I buy him a book on evangelicalism out of my own meager income and ask him to read it, and four months later, he hasn’t even cracked a page. I guess I should have left a twenty-dollar bill as a bookmark or something.
(I’m using guilt because guilt is the only thing that works with Mormons.)
I really liked Seth R.’s contribution to this thread, esp. the bit Ms. Jack quoted. Or maybe it’s just nostalgia for my own Mormon upbringing. They don’t raise ’em like they used to, not even the Mormons. These days I hear they’re paying kids $10 to not read the Pearl of Great Price. badum-CHING
I just find it absolutely delicious that God would manifest himself through men so controversial.
Yep. And let women remain empty vessels through which he manifests pretty much nothing.
Though I guess “delicious” isn’t exactly what I would call that.
Anyone who has actually studied the history of Mormon women in depth would consider that an overstatement Holly.
Hmm, that new post from Ardis discussed in the above link is kinda interesting.
What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.
In other words, nothing to see here, move along, the Mormon church has always been losing young people.
Except, at least one thing has changed:
“It” being the percentage of folks reporting “none” on surveys of religious affiliation.
So many Mormon-Haters think once a kid dumps the church they never come back. My Stake President went inactive when he was 18. Kids will do this a lot, they will leave the church for a while thinking there is more to life. They will investigate other religions and realize the other guys are even more messed up than Mormons are. Eventually they come back to the Mormons once they start having kids, then it starts all over again with their own kids.
Wow, what a crazy thread. I wonder what Jessica, Liz, and Dayna are up to now…
I suppose it is time for me to post a story here. If it weren’t for Craig’s recent post, I wouldn’t know this thread even existed. Thank you Craig.
My family isn’t very religious, though there is a history of Protestant and Lutheran, with a little bit of Catholic. When I was a small child, a family friend use to bring my sisters and I to a nearby church. She passed away and we stopped attending that church.
When I was in high school, a friend of mine invited me to his youth group in a Pentacostal church. I was properly saved there, though I don’t remember if I was baptized or not. My youth pastor taught me how wonderful it is to worship Jesus and God.
During my senior year, I became friends with a pretty girl who was working for my mom cleaning stalls. She was a Mormon and I followed her into the church. I went through the discussions with the missionaries at members’ houses because I knew that my parents wouldn’t approve. Everything seemed to make a lot of sense that the missionaries were teaching me, and since I was young and naive, I didn’t question any of it.
I was ordained a Priest, but I was going to the Pentacostal church at the same time. Soon my youth pastor convinced me to stop going to the Mormon church. Soon after that, I graduated high school, and with no prospects for college or real jobs, I ended up joining the Army.
While in the Army, I attended several different churches, but I also got well immersed in the ways of the world. I didn’t even consider things that I was doing to be sins. I had my wits about me, and everything was consensual, and I never felt guilty about any of it, so I felt no reason to change.
After eight years in the Army, I decided that it was time to actually make something of myself. I went to college and attempted to get an electrical engineering degree. It took me 5 years to satisfactorily complete two years worth of major required classes, though I had all of my electives and other stuff taken care of. Somewhere in the middle of that, I was diagnosed with ADHD and Asperger’s, but too late to really make a difference.
I went back to my old Pentacostal church one time, and during that time, I saw a propaganda movie telling Christians that they should side with the Jews in the war in Israel. That was a major flag for me, so I haven’t been back since.
A few years ago, I found the woman that would become my wife. She is a Mormon, and I told her that I would be supportive of her religion, but I gave no guarentees that I would join. Eventually, the missionaries found me, and I started to go to the discussions again. Now I am an Elder. Luckily, my church doesn’t involve itself in the more contraversial aspects of the church (polygamy, racism, gay rights, etc.) so I haven’t had to leave out of spite (if my congregation were actively anti-anyone’s rights, I would have to leave).
I found this site when, on a whim, I looked up ‘Reformed Egyptian’. After reading through some of the blogs, I think this site is exactly what I need. Mormons, ex-Mormons, and other interested parties having intelligent descussions about issues that are pertinent to some of the more contraversial pieces of the church as well as current events.
It is my belief that a church that proclaims itself as “the one true church” should be able to hold up to any sort of scrutiny unscathed (or at least intact). I know that Joseph Smith wasn’t perfect and I believe the truth of his life is somewhere between the church’s official representation of him and the story that anti-Mormons give about him. I know that “The Book of Abraham” is false. I have currently read through most of each of the books of scripture with the exception of the Doctorine and Covenants. I’ve looked through the section that supposedly is given as a commandment for polygamy and found it to merely state that it was acceptable to God in the past, so where Joseph Smith saw that as a commandment is beyond me. My favorite part of the Book of Mormon, so far, is Jacob’s Allegory.
I am interested in good documentation for or against the church. Sorry for the wall of text.