Why are we leaving the LDS Church in droves? Why? Why? Why?

Bloggernacle civil discourse DAMU Deconversion

I think that Kevin Barney was sincerely interested in finding answers when he first posed the question. The trouble is that when you ask a question on the Internet, there’s a danger that you’ll get responses from people who have actual, first-hand experience. Then the double-trouble is that it’s hard to answer that question in a reasonable way without, y’know, pointing out things that might possibly be wrong with the CoJCoL-dS. Which, in Mormonland, is not kosher. Those are the kinds of truths that aren’t useful — unless you want to actually address and solve the problems. But that would require acknowledging that the CoJCoL-dS may not be already perfect exactly the way it is. Just imagining such a thing makes some believers respond with la-la-la-I-can’t-hear-you-anymore-because-I’m-bearing-my-testimony-at-you-now (which Chino argues may be the root of the problem).

But, to be fair, the responses that Andrew calls “cringe-worthy” (about how obviously bad and wrong the church is) don’t really answer the question either. We’ve hardly scratched the surface of the main mysteries:

  • Why now? Why was the LDS church growing a few decades ago and now heading into decline? (If it’s not true now, it’s not as though it was more true thirty years ago…)
  • Why is religion in general losing ground throughout the industrialized world? Are Mormonism’s problems just a part of that trend, or is there something more going on in Zion?
  • Why is it that the more liberal/laid-back religions seem to be losing ground faster than the more extreme/all-consuming religions? (Is that actually the case, and is Mormonism a counter-example?)

Now, I have my own theory about this, but please formulate your own theory before reading it.

Ready?

OK, remember how they used to teach us in Sunday School that nobody knows when the exact time of the Second coming will be, not even Heavenly Father? Well, naturally that causes some coordination and planning problems. HF had saved up a whole bunch of choice, valiant spirits for the last days — but He used them all up a generation ago, and now in the latter-latter days, He’s left scraping the bottom of the spirit barrel. Meanwhile, Jesus is still in the bathroom doing his hair for His return in clouds of glory.

But, seriously, any ideas?

530 thoughts on “Why are we leaving the LDS Church in droves? Why? Why? Why?

  1. Seth– to answer you question if God made you the prophet would i run for the hills……..Yes i would run so fast my shoes would fall off. Or i would take that back if you would be so brave as to explain your views inwhich you so far only know how to deny. This may sound funny to you seth but as i read your words i get a feeling or as i like to say the spirity inwhich testifies to me how the person im talking to might be and usually my feelings are very correct. i can introduce you to countless leaders in the church and if we were gambling people i would wajor that they did not think like you. If you repented changed your ways and treated your brother as yourself then i would glady sustain you but in no way would you any longer be able to apease sin of anykind on the site no not even homosexuality.

  2. Jason — I’m glad you’ve enjoyed spending time on this site. We are interested in hearing from all different viewpoints, so if you want to stick around, that’s fine.

    However, if you want to hang out here on a regular basis, you need to keep in mind that we’re very committed to keeping the discussion here civil and constructive. Please read our welcome page. That means that you have to be willing and able to have a reasonable conversation with liberals, with gay people, with atheists, with Evangelical Christians, with Mormons who believe somewhat different doctrines than you do, etc., (a whole lot of etc.), without making irrelevant speculations about people’s personal lives, worthiness, and motives.

  3. seth– well as people like to believe these days that our current leaders are infallible and they also say that when a prophet speaks at a general conference it is the same as scripture, im sure you have been taught this in church at one point or another right? So why would it be scripture for us now with current leaders and mean nothing or be of no importance to us what past prophets and apostles have said at general conference or when said as revelation at any point. I will never leave the church! But i know how to follow the scriptures and the spirit and if the spirit is testifying something to me teaching me something i listen. I hope you seth and whomever else can do that, pray and ask God to have the spirit with to help you make better choices when it comes to anything.

    I have already don that and thats why im a differrent type of mormon now. I do not believe president monson is infallible or is he my favorite prophet he is actualy my least favorite of all time but i still have to sustain him ans listen to his councel but because he is imperfect i will not practice blind faith but question and ask god wether anything he says be real or not, and i hope you can do the same.

  4. Jason ~ You say that most of the Mormons you’ve known are like you.

    I don’t believe you.

    I’m a never-Mormon who is married to a faithful and active TR-holding Mormon, and I did my degree at Brigham Young University, so I’ve known my share of Mormons. Most of them were nothing like you. Most of them were nothing like Seth.

    I’ve known Seth for over two years now. I’ve yelled at him, I’ve argued with him, I’ve pushed him on difficult issues, I’ve had long and mutually enlightening discussions about theology with him. I’ve ribbed him over some of his eccentric conservative beliefs and practices (like refusing to let his 5 year-old and 8 year-old daughters wear tank tops and following that silly convention of “husband & father chooses who gets to pray”). We’ve swapped stories about falling in love with our spouses and cute stuff our kids have done, and once in a blue moon, I’ve even let him know about something I was struggling with personally and asked for prayers or advice. And as I already mentioned on this thread, our families have met in person twice.

    So, for whatever my opinion may be worth: yes, he is Mormon. Yes, he really believes in priesthood and apostasy and temples and revelation and prophets and apostles and all that stuff that I don’t believe in. He’s probably spent far more time defending these things from skeptics and critics of all flavors than you ever will.

    You want to disagree with Seth, fine. Trust me, ever participant on this blog disagrees with Seth on a whole lot of things. Disagreeing with Seth is just Wednesday in the lives of most of us.

    But quit questioning his faithfulness and his personal righteousness and his sexuality and his political beliefs. It makes you look like a cad who can’t lay off the ad hominem and just discuss issues for what they are.

    And before you ask: no, I’m not a lesbian, or a bi-sexual, or a Democrat, or a communist, or a socialist, or a gay-rights activist. I’m just a boring ol’ Republican and an evangelical Christian—only the kind who doesn’t love Mormons but instead just uses them for sex. Pleased to meet you.

  5. chanson-thanks i will! maybe not every day but ill come in and bug you guys every now and then. haha

  6. ms. jack–slow down i barely know you. lol just kidding. Im not trying to fight against seth i just have never met another mormon who is ok to apease a little sin here and a little sin their, but hey maybe i should get out more maybe say san fran, or new york. Im going off how i feel when i read his earlier comments something just not feel right or add up. If seth is all that you said, then i would ask seth one thing and i dont say this to disrespect seth but brada get your balls back my friend draw your lind in the sand. I only question which side you will be on.

  7. jason, can you point me to one instance in which I actually “caved in” to sin or “appeased” on this thread? I’m kind of interested in what your definition is – because you haven’t managed to coherently explain it yet.

  8. Jason — You mean our welcome page? Where the site policies are explained? Of course we didn’t write it for you. We’ve had it for years, linked into the banner of the site.

  9. seth– i always wait entirely to long before i get on the computer to make some quick responces me and you would have to go to school and have a drawn out debate and once again it 2 in the morning. If i had the time i would go back overthing you said and i could indeed point out liberal thinking, apeaseing homosexuals here on this sit, cause heavenly father knows the only peron you wont missionary up with to save sould on this thread is with me and i know you say you dont like me but realy your required to love me so.. One example of sin is your believe that homosexuality is not that bad and a sin that you personaly would not worry about. So by saying that you apease gays into believing you got their back and inturn they trust you a little more and you become a little more on their side and if you keep entering the grey areas of life seth you might as well live in the darkest areas as well. You belittled the lds church and said “mormonism at its finest” to a temple reccomend holding member on this thread trying to change thought and feeling on this thread while you apease it and gang up on me the one person who should have switched into missionary gear, you dont have to like me but remember birds of a fether flock together, and we are who are friends are you just remember that. If i actualy had the time to go through all your post i could have you alot better ones but it wouldnt matter. If your proud of the church then say it, if your proud of the doctrine then wear it on your sleeves, have the spirit with you and when someone asks you something let the spirit talk for you. Let a little of your worrier out and you might save alot of more souls.

  10. jason, again – where did I ever “appease gays” in this thread?

    Because I honestly think you’re making it up out of thin air. Where did I ever advocate for homosexuality? Where did I ever take a stance contrary to LDS policy on homosexuality?

    And don’t try to tell me that you’re too tired to look through the thread and find an example.

    You came out in a public forum and accused me of being an apostate, a “wolf in sheeps clothing” and of trying to harm the LDS Church.

    Those are serious allegations.

    Please tell me that you are not so lacking in responsibility for your actions that you would make such accusations without actually having specific examples in mind.

    You threw the first punch – now take responsibility for it.

  11. Seth
    All of this time and I didn’t know I was being appeased….by you apparently. Thanks, I guess. I am not sure even what being appeased is, but thanks.

  12. I dont even know why MSP is allowing this. I think you went too far 4 pages ago.

    Yes, he’s probably gone too far several times (and has received warnings for it), and yet people keep engaging him in discussion. What do you propose MSP do about it?

  13. Seth @ 464:

    Where did I ever take a stance contrary to LDS policy on homosexuality?

    Perhaps it’s like how cops in many cities now consider possession of marijuana to be a low rung of crime, not something they get all twisted up about, but it’s still a “crime.” They don’t go around saying it’s okay, but they don’t focus on its “evilness.” For someone like Jason, homosexuality is something you must pounce on immediately, a sin next to murder — since well, that’s what many Mormons are still taught. So, in his eyes, you’re acting “un-Mormon.” But certainly, I don’t think Jason has a good sense of this issue as it manifests Church-wide, or even a good sense of the Church as a whole generally, since when I tried to explain how many Mormons take varying stances, he lectured me about “hanging in there about my struggle.”

    Jason, I would suggest you move to “San Fran” or “New York,” as you suggested for yourself. There are Mormons in those cities. Upturning your nose at every gay couple you see will eventually prove tiring.

  14. seth– alan is correct with the first half of his comment. You have chosen to apease it by thinking it no big worry and fall short to speak your mind against the evils of homosexuality, no you are correct i find no place where you’re in favor of homosexuality or gay marriage but as i look through all are comments i do not see you take a stance against it either, therefor, to me its the same thing as apeasing the sin or leading others to believe it not that big an issue. If you have taken a stand against it on earlier post thats are not on this thread but are now to worried about losing friends that are gay, its the same to me again. Here is an example of what you have said.

    “Pride is always a far more damaging sin than mere sexual transgression. It is enmity toward God as Ezra Taft Benson said. And I believe it is this sin that topples nations, more than any bedroom behavior.

    Reasonable minds may differ on how much homosexuality is linked to the more pressing societal ills we have. But its not an area I particularly enjoy speculating in. I think there are better uses of my time and energies.”

    So why would sin next to murder not be worth your energies? Like i said i dont know many mormons if any like yourself.

  15. alan– you were pretty acurate with the first have of your post. I only disagree with with you emplying it may be different somehow church wide. It is not, im sure in liberal cities you can find more of a gay community, they might come to false conclustions on when and how it might finaly be allowed in the church but, how many general confrences and/or prophets have to say that the sin of homosexuality will not be allowed before it seaps in? Thats why the authorities say something more then once in general conferences on the issue cause no matter how blunt and sturn they get on the issue gays still contend with it and still have hope it will change when it will never. The sin is next to murder and someone gay is stopping their progression on this earth not being fruitful and multiplying to have children to continue the cycle of having families. Yes they can adopt but in turn are hurting the adopted child by teaching him or her to believe it is ok and then they are more then likely to be gay themselves if they see it every day in their homes( though ofcourse not all will be gay but chances go up a great deal), it realy messes up the child and we all know how messing up ones progression is a great sin in the eyes of God cause thats exactly what happens when someone is murdered, their progression is stoped making their life shorter and not giving the victim ample time to learn, grow, and repent, while in this mortal life. PS. i do not think bad of the individual just the sin, i would be friends with anyone gay and give them a big fat hug everytime i saw them but if i saw any friend doing something that might damn themselves in the eyes of God i care enough about them to warn them even in our modern sodom and gomoras; sanfransico, los angelas, new york, and well you could just throw most of cali in that category.

  16. alan–half not have, please excuse all the errors i only woke up for a few minutes and checked my messages so my eyes are still closed. Alan, are you a member? Do you sustain the prophet? Just wondering cause its hard to know where anyone stands if i dont atleast attempt to ask and many on this site wont tell you much of anything but only quickly try to prove you wrong. It would be nice if everyone would attempt to build some sort of common ground every now and then, not speaking of you, from what i have read you have been pretty open minded, thanks for that.

  17. I’m a Mormon-watcher, not a Mormon (although technically, I am a member). My partner and I have been together for a long time. You can call us “gay” if you’d like, but I don’t think that we are “messed up.” Nor do I think it’s messed up for us to be seen holding hands by my niece and nephew. There are different kinds of families in the world, and since the Church is interested in family, it would be good for it to do some more research on the subject.

  18. So let me get this straight, you’re calling me an apostate because of issues of STYLE? And because I said that pride was a worse sin than sexual transgression?

    Is that an accurate summary?

  19. chanson ~ That’s really up to you. Personally, I wouldn’t allow slurs on the genitalia of other posters on my blog; they’d be sent to the moderation queue and the offender put on strict “do it again and you’re gone” warning. But MSP isn’t my blog.

    yet people keep engaging him in discussion

    That they are.

    But you can take my name off of the list of people still doing this. I’m done.

  20. One more thing here jason.

    In that passage where Alma tells his son Corianton that adultery is like a “sin next to murder”, what does he then do to Corianton?

    Yup, teaches him about the atonement and then sends him BACK INTO THE MISSION FIELD.

    Do you think he would have done that if Corianton had just murdered someone?

  21. As per this request, I have plugged Jasons email address into the facebook search box, and I confirm that he appears to be a real person.

    Is the same facebook page that links to a profile picture of someone in a Na’vi costume and with no other public information available? That’s absolutely no proof that jason is who he says he is. My guess is that he’s an old Banner of Heaven blogger who just can’t stop. 😉

  22. “If seth is all that you said, then i would ask seth one thing and i dont say this to disrespect seth but brada get your balls back my friend draw your lind in the sand. “

  23. Kari — That’s possible.

    Andrew — ok, thanks for pointing out the offending comment.

    Jason — seriously, keep it polite and civil. We’ve been very lenient, but if you direct any more rude remarks at participants here, we’ll have no choice but to redirect your comments to the moderation queue.

  24. Chanson, I’m about to drop this conversation as well. Usually in a Mormon issues debate accusations of “apostasy” are the last resort of people who’ve just lost the debate. Usually when someone starts ranting about apostasy without giving a reasoned description of why, it’s time to just roll your eyes and move on.

  25. chanson ~ For the record, I didn’t mean to disparage your moderation job. I know that you’ve warned him several times, and I appreciate it.

  26. chanson– Is ms. jack reading the comment of a different jason? I have never talked about or commented on genitalia so i dont have the slightest clue what she’s talking about. Wasnt she the one bringing up sex cause i know i sure never did.

  27. seth– lost a debate, yea ok buddy. I just wish i had all day to make you look foolish, as a lawyer i dont know how you spend all day on a computer responding to your 10 different blogs. You just made my point again. You look for ways to justify sin and apease sin as not that bad even if its taught its next to murder cause your book of mormon character forgiven his son… yea ok..so what if he did? Yea so your saying if you had a son who killed someone you would never forgive him, so what whould you do to your son? I would hope to believe the love for your son would be unconditional. I dont know if your officialy apostate but i know your apeasement of sin is luke warm and i dont see a difference between being an apostate and being spewed from Gods mouth do you? Sin is sin! No unclean thing can enter into the kindom of God. I dont care if your apeasing murder, homosexuality, or stealing bubble gum from the grocery store. I dont email people on blogs saying; its ok that you steal gum as long as you dont kill someone, its not that bad it could be worse.. No, i say do not steal you dont do that no matter how minor you may think it is. Lets me and you go talk to a bishop together or any authority and lets see if they agree with you, do you realy think you would win this argument? I dont think so seth..

  28. chanson–oh ok, ms jack is talking about “balls”. I have never talked about genitalia with mr. jack and i wasnt so specific as she was and i dont talk about sex with my mormon wife. So does the word offend you? If i said wavos, if im saying that right, would that be considered bad to ms. jack or to you chanson? So far you have been very level headed and have not looked for ways to censor me so i would hope you wouldnt let ms. jack or any other person think she can come onto the site and silence people. So when have b-lls become discusting i would think they wouldnt so easily gross out mr. jack.

  29. Alan- maybe you can answer this? Why is it when a member is against homosexuality most “gays” think that people like me are against the individual. I have nothing against you or people like you, you seam like a realy smart guy and you seam thoughtful in your thought process. Im only against the act of homosexuality. Cant people like me and you be good friends while i remain against the act of gay sex? I would have nothing against someone like you, chanson, or whomever but if you asked me what i thought on the issue i would tell you that i thought it was wrong and a sin. What is wrong with that? One more question, when has the word “gay” become such a damning word to those practicing homosexuality, does that word offend gays this is just a honest question.

  30. Everyone– I was just thinking that i would much rather be best friends with a gay person then i would a luke warm mormon. I think a gay might even be better off in the next life when it comes to repentence.. just saying..

  31. seth–maybe you sould back away like you said cause i might have one thing you do not and that is the spirit.. Yes you are lds by name but maybe you should get out of the think tank a little and actualy worry about the works part. That reminds me of a poem which reminds me of you, here it is….

    “Believe and be saved, believe and be saved said the minister as he retired to his spacious new home, in his humble mercedes with everything crome, he went to his studies his thoughts running deep, dozed for a moment and died in his sleep, he went to saint peter and said with a grin, I believed in the savior so please let me in, oh no said saint peter with a sigh, the devils working hard and the tolls running high, you see to believe in the savior you must do as he said, cause faith without works is nothing but dead, the DEVIL knows jesus believes in him to, so whats the difference between the devil and YOU?”

  32. kari–that is a picture of me and my little girl made up as avatars, i had loved the movie and i thought it would be a cool pic. I have my facebook page set to private and i gave you my email adress, should i invite you over for dinner cause im not quite understanding the whole made up thing, this is actualy the first time i ever had interest to even blog so im not realy understanding the whole idea of not being real…ok well im an angel, do you believe me?

  33. Jason ~ My handle is Ms. Jack, which is a feminine title, and I think I’ve made it very clear that I am a woman. Please stop calling me “Mr. Jack.”

    Comments to the effect of “get some balls” or “grow a pair” are offensive, both because they are graphic in content (it’s a reference to testicles) and because it’s a sexist remark that insults a man by implying that he is a woman. Because we all know there’s nothing so lowly or undesirable as being a woman.

    Yes, the Spanish word for “eggs” (huevos) is just as bad when used in that context. I’m not sure what rock you’ve been living under to not know all this.

    Last I checked, you were the first one to bring up sex in this thread. Anal sex at that.

    Now I have better things to do with my time than argue with someone who is hateful, misogynist, racist, homophobic, and obviously insecure in his own masculinity. Have a nice life.

  34. Since I suspect this discussion will be wrapping up soon, I thought I’d step in and just thank Jason, for confirming a few things to me, and providing me with great entertainment along the way.

    I would like to share my testimony that I believe that Jason is a bona fide Mormon, albeit not a typical one (Thank God!). You see, my father is exactly the same way. The guy is a full on racist, and he clings to the wacky comments espoused to early Church leaders and stuff in Mormon Doctrine to make him feel better about himself. He throws a royal fit if you call him a racist, or even if he think you might be insinuating that he might be a racist, but at the end of the day he still preaches this crap, and stands by it. If you think someone is inferior for any reason, due to race or culture, you’re a racist – even if you think God said it!

    Seth is not a typical Mormon either though. While I generally disagree with Seth, at least he can put forth a logical argument, and will provide sources for any doctrines or principles which he puts forth. And he can hold his side of the argument without resorting to slander and pathetic whining. Seth, which it probably doesn’t mean much, I think you’re a credit to this institution, and my hat goes off to you for the professional way you have handled this discussion.

    And now onto the funny stuff…

    I know it’s been done to death, but I have to say how much I appreciated reading Jason spout off about “The Glory of God being intelligence”, and yet, at the same time and yet at the same time demonstrate a grammatical command of the English language comparable to my 6 year old daughter. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you’re Cajun and all that crap. I know people who speak English as a 6th and 7th language, and yet even they get the principles of basic capitalization and grammar so I’m not going to buy that. One has to question your abilities with basic reading and comprehension when your written word is this horrendous.

    On that note, the continued lack of capitalization for proper nouns was a little off putting as well. Jason you claim to be all spiritual and God fearing, and yet, you can’t even capitalize the name of your deity?!? I’m an atheist, and even I still found your use of the Saviour and Jesus Christ sans capitalization to be a little offensive.

    The continued claims of open-mindedness were a little much to take as well. It takes more than just lip-service to a concept to actually become the concept. I know a lot of openminded people – many of whom I disagree with, but you sir have a mind about as open as a mussel at low tide!

    But the final comment to Seth, in which he quoted the wee poem about the minister absolutely took the cake for me…

    “In his humble Mercedes with everything chrome”

    OMFG!!! Clearly Jason, you have NO idea what the leaders of your Church drive around in, nor the lavish offices from which they administer, nor the obscene stipends which they claim as remuneration for their services in God’s kingdom.

    I’m not looking for an argument here, because quite frankly your words speak for themselves.

    Anyone who knows me well, knows that I harbor some pretty strong negative feelings towards the Church, and yet at the same time, I’m embarrassed for the Church that people like yourself claim to represent it.

    And before you spout off with the anti-gay rhetoric:

    I’m straight, married (in the temple actually!) with 5 kids.
    I’m pro-gay rights and I think Glenn Beck is a fear-monger who has found a niche amongst the brain dead and the intellectually retarded.
    And I’m a proud Libertarian Socialist!

    And don’t even try the “I still love you!” crap. My father tried that one too… And here’s a man who refuses to step foot in my house, until I admit I was wrong about leaving the Church. My kids all find a “openmindedness” and “love” a little strange as well.

  35. mr. jack–Wow you are a for sure feminist arent you..lol..wow it amazes me how you think so badly of me for using the word “balls” when you dont see nothing wrong with homosexuality bud god forbid i say the word “balls”..lol..yes i do think its funny..yea a woman is so undesirable to me im STRAIT and married to one, go figure. obviously insecure in my own masculinity.. yea ok, have you seen me lately, well i guess you havent. yes i do live under a rock and when i woke up and crawled from underneath it, i got sick to my stomach when i realized nancy pelosi and a few of her feminist stunt doubles crawled out of my toilet and tried to follow me… Yea so good luck and have a nice day.

  36. I’m waiting for for two things from you jason:

    First I’d like a yes or no on whether comment #473 accurately summarizes your case against me.

    Secondly, I’d like either

    a) an acknowledgment from you that you were preaching false doctrine by claiming that blacks were “fence-sitters” in the pre-existence, or

    b) a reason why you think that Brigham Young, Joseph Fielding Smith, Joseph F. Smith, Bruce R. McConkie, and Jeffrey R. Holland were all wrong.

    Until you actually man up and face those questions (the second of which you have been dodging for this entire thread), I have nothing further to say to you. It’s pointless debating someone who would rather change the subject than deal with the issues.

    So let’s keep it in order.

    Were you preaching false doctrine when you claimed that blacks were fence-sitters in the pre-mortal world?

  37. Jason, I’ll answer your questions, but this is probably my last comment to you, since I think people are rather annoyed at you.

    Let’s say my partner and I invite you over for dinner. You are now in our home. There would be an expectation that you hold your tongue about thinking our relationship is a “sin” unless we picked your brain about the topic. Otherwise, you would be acting disrespectfully.

    Now, imagine a world where everyone held their tongue about homosexuality being a “sin” in order to be respectful to all the gay couples out there. Eventually, people would forget that homosexuality is a sin. Thus, there is a part of you that would not like the fact that we ask you to hold your tongue, but another part of you is okay about it because you know we already know what you think about the topic. But unless someone somewhere continues saying consistently that homosexuality is a sin, people will forget or think it’s backwards. My partner and I would not feel comfortable in spaces where our relationship is deemed sinful. So, therefore, there would be spaces that he and I are comfortable, spaces where you are comfortable: our worlds to a great extent would be separate.

    The goal of a good religious community, so far as I know, is to exist for a shared world, not maintain separate worlds. By shared, I mean where differences and different viewpoints are paramount and respected; there is not a push toward sameness. You might think the goal is to be obedient to God, but surely you know people have different beliefs about God and different ideas about what constitutes sin. I’m simplifying everything here, but this is basically what it comes down to for me.

    Everyone I was just thinking that i would much rather be best friends with a gay person then i would a luke warm mormon. I think a gay might even be better off in the next life when it comes to repentence…

    One more question, when has the word gay become such a damning word to those practicing homosexuality, does that word offend gays

    If your hope is that you can learn politically correct language to be respectful but still advocate the message that homosexuality is a sin, I don’t really know what to tell you. People would consider this a wolf in sheep’s clothing, which, is, by the way, the problem you seem to describe Seth as having for not being a wolf-all-the-time about homosexuality.

  38. Jason ~ you are a for sure feminist arent you

    I’m pro-life, so most modern-day feminists would answer your question with an adamant “no.”

    when you dont see nothing wrong with homosexuality

    CFR. Where did I ever say that I see nothing wrong with homosexuality?

    yea a woman is so undesirable to me im STRAIT and married to one

    Most misogynist men are both straight and married.

  39. “Not feeding the troll” means completely ignoring it — not replying to it, not asking it questions, not defending yourself against its accusations (unnecessary, because everyone already knows that whatever it says is wrong), not piling on with criticism (no matter how well deserved), not making fun of it, not anything. And everyone has to do it for it to work. Just sayin’.

    (Although at this point “banning the troll” is probably the only viable solution, one that I dislike in general but would fully support in this case.)

  40. Not feeding the troll means completely ignoring it

    I know. Shame on me.

    (Although at this point banning the troll is probably the only viable solution, one that I dislike in general but would fully support in this case.)

    Ditto.

  41. urban koda–thats to bad your dad wont step foot in your house cause no matter how wacky and evil your thinking might be a father should never disown his children and only love them upon conditions. It does not bother me you have spare time to proof read my comments and if it makes you better at the english language thats a good thing. I could send everyone comments that were perfect, proof reading and correcting any small mistake in my comments but the message is more important to me and to be honest i just dont care and dont have the time to do that for you. Im usualy in a rush and i dont have time to worry about it and i usualy type pretty fast so take it as you want. Why do people like yourself think that pointing out grammer mistakes would bother me, if thats my biggest concern im doing pretty good. As far as the poem is concerned where in the world do you get i was talking about the authorities of the church? It was obvious i was talking to people UNLIKE the authorities of the church, i think your confusing yourself. I hope you dont think you actualy made a good argument cause to be honest if you have read all of my comments you would see you stand for everything im against. Like i said, you fit a marker indicating the comming destruction of a society. Your an angry socialist who longs for the love of his father. You blame your dad for everything but are not quick to look at your own problems and if your causing any of them in the first place. It looks as if the weeding out process is well underway and ya know what, yea I LOVE YOU, I LOVE YOU , I LOVE YOU, and so does Jesus Christ capital J and God capital G, so i hope you can get over your pride and repent of your sins and worry about my spelling errors a little less and get your priorities strait especialy when you have children involved.

  42. Ms. jack– yes feminist, communist love to ban people from speaking, you love to debate people who only share your view point so i hate to see you debate God when he tells you your dead wrong and yes he’s a MAN so you might have a personal issue there.

  43. Two analogies come to mind…

    First analogy: You know how on American Idol, there is always that guy that just can’t sing? People’s ear drums are bursting, and the judges are trying to be nice, but at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what they say to him. He’s convinced he’s the greatest singer in the world.

    Second analogy: There is a large battlefield. It’s full of seasoned soldiers, all well trained and battle hardened. Their weapons are effective and their aim is incredibly keen. Fortunately their armor is thick and their fortifications well planned and strong. Everyone has a great amount of respect for each others abilities, and respect their opponents as the warriors they are.

    All of a sudden, in the midst of the battlefield, a 7 year old kid shows up with a water pistol, and it’s not even a good water pistol. The trigger fell off a long time ago, and he it’s as if hasn’t quite realized it.

    The soldiers all look at each other, trying to figure out what the hell he’s doing there.

    All of a sudden he starts running around making shooting noises and generally getting in the way. The soldiers feel really bad for the little tyke and try their best not to shoot him, but invariably, he runs into a little machine gun fire here, and ends up jumping on a grenade or two. There’s a friendly fire incident as well, but we’ll forget about that 🙂

    Remarkably after a few hours of this, he’s still alive, but lying in a pool of his own blood and guts.

    The soldiers gather around, kinda of concerned for the little guy.

    All of a sudden he starts waving his broken water pistol around. “I am the true Warrior!”, he starts screaming. “I showed y’all how to be true warriors, and if you’d just listen to me, and could show you how to be greater warriors!

    The soldiers stare at each other bemused and a little confused.

    “I won and I beat you all! I am the true warrior God.”

    And with that the soldiers wondered off, wondering why the hell a 7 year old would show up to a gunfight with a water pistol.

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