Why are we leaving the LDS Church in droves? Why? Why? Why?

I think that Kevin Barney was sincerely interested in finding answers when he first posed the question. The trouble is that when you ask a question on the Internet, there’s a danger that you’ll get responses from people who have actual, first-hand experience. Then the double-trouble is that it’s hard to answer that question in a reasonable way without, y’know, pointing out things that might possibly be wrong with the CoJCoL-dS. Which, in Mormonland, is not kosher. Those are the kinds of truths that aren’t useful — unless you want to actually address and solve the problems. But that would require acknowledging that the CoJCoL-dS may not be already perfect exactly the way it is. Just imagining such a thing makes some believers respond with la-la-la-I-can’t-hear-you-anymore-because-I’m-bearing-my-testimony-at-you-now (which Chino argues may be the root of the problem).

But, to be fair, the responses that Andrew calls “cringe-worthy” (about how obviously bad and wrong the church is) don’t really answer the question either. We’ve hardly scratched the surface of the main mysteries:

  • Why now? Why was the LDS church growing a few decades ago and now heading into decline? (If it’s not true now, it’s not as though it was more true thirty years ago…)
  • Why is religion in general losing ground throughout the industrialized world? Are Mormonism’s problems just a part of that trend, or is there something more going on in Zion?
  • Why is it that the more liberal/laid-back religions seem to be losing ground faster than the more extreme/all-consuming religions? (Is that actually the case, and is Mormonism a counter-example?)

Now, I have my own theory about this, but please formulate your own theory before reading it.

Ready?

OK, remember how they used to teach us in Sunday School that nobody knows when the exact time of the Second coming will be, not even Heavenly Father? Well, naturally that causes some coordination and planning problems. HF had saved up a whole bunch of choice, valiant spirits for the last days — but He used them all up a generation ago, and now in the latter-latter days, He’s left scraping the bottom of the spirit barrel. Meanwhile, Jesus is still in the bathroom doing his hair for His return in clouds of glory.

But, seriously, any ideas?

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chanson

C. L. Hanson is the friendly American ExMormon atheist mom living in Switzerland! See "letters from a broad" and the novel ExMormon for further adventures!!

530 thoughts on “Why are we leaving the LDS Church in droves? Why? Why? Why?

  1. We don’t tolerate incivility around here, Poor Jason or whatever your name is.

    If you have something to say, please, stick to the merits of the argument, do not insult people, and remember your manners.

  2. poor jason, how funny! poor fruit loops did i hurt your feelings? why dont you just call this site the rainbow club or the im a female in a male body club? Oh spawn of satan keep loving up on eachother and thinking that Gods ok with what your doing cause he’s not! You guys keep trying to keep people out of your site with different opinions then yourselfs cause your lovers of evil and birds of a feather stick together in this case its gay birds. Repent Repent Repent when your judged youll never be given in marriage so you wont have a man or a women. Eat sleep and be marry for tommorrow we might die and you will be judged of all your evil deeds and your sin is next to murder as a madder of fact you cant even join the church if your having any gay relations so if your members, well i can bet your not you were either ex communicated or your just mad cause you want people to stop telling you what your doing is wrong and to be excepted well sin will never be excepted and no unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of God, so do you think God is going to let the rainbow club in to man love each other…nope and if your not gay and your on this site and your apeasing the gays and liberals your in the same boat cause God will spew the luke warm and apeasers of evil out of his mouth! sleep well to night, repent before its to late.

  3. yea and to the other comment, gays love the muslims and the muslim religion. you think if muslims took over they would welcome you fuity pebbles into their open arms? muslims kill gays and it is outlawed in their society.. what is wrong with you people? THe q’uran is the first five books of moses copied from the torah and alot of added garbage from the sons of ishmeal who was told to get lost by abraham cause issac was the chosen person of God, the descendants of ishmeal are the muslims and they just had to make up their own religion cause they, like cain, were not excepted by God to be his chosen people so i see alot of simularities between them and gays, dont go making things up and wanting to start your own gay church just cause what your doing is an abomination, and im not talking to the non gays but from alot of the comments i was reading this site is bleading gay. Im done find yourselves a woman it might do ya some good.

  4. I second Hellmut, and I’m glad to see that none of the regulars need to be reminded not to feed the trolls. 😉

    Jason — Regarding the Father and the Son — I recall hearing in Sunday School that one knows the time of the second coming and one doesn’t; thanks for clarifying which is which. Please don’t worry so hard about random anonymous commenters on the Internet.

  5. helmutt, i see what the merits are and i see what your trying to accomplish on this site you want poeple to sit back and apease evil, well you should just keep conservatives off your site cause when they read alot of the comments they will know right away that alot of your bloggers have a gay agenda and im tired of hugging people to repentence. you want me to be calm and just rationalize with them that its ok, things might change, pople might wake up one day and homosexuality will be ok, well it will never. so instead of complaining why dont you just repent and go back to church.

    Chanson, i only brung the issue up cause when i read it in the blog post the argument was being made on things that were not factual and inacurate and thats how apostacy kicks in. yes thanks, i was glad that i could clarify that for you. ps. more then likely the savior also knows now, thats not doctrine but scholors might tell you the same opinion. I do believe that there is a in-house apostacy going on in the church now with alot of its members but it is from liberalism and communist ideas. charity is not charity if one if forced to be charitable, that was satans plan in the pre-existence to force everyone to have to do right so all made it back to heaven and then satan added he wanted heavenly fathers glory. this liberal, gay, socialist, movement of membership or ex membersip is not of God and one gets to the point where you get tired of hugging enemies of God and you just want to kick some evil butt, so if i come off harsh maybe ill wake a few people up and get them thinking cause if they cant handle my words they sure dont want to hear what satan has instore for them when they die.

  6. Jason the tone of anger and dislike behind your statements are not in keeping with the words of our current LDS General Authorities. They would not use the tone of anger, or political alienation and polarization that you use here.

    If you want to have your own opinions, fine. But don’t present yourself as a spokesperson for the LDS Church – since your views are not what I’ve heard from them, and I, as a faithful and active Mormon who has been arguing with the critics of the LDS Church on this website for some time, also do not sympathize with your tone.

  7. seth r., you buddy are part of the problem. first of all if you can find where i said i represent the church you will win the argument but you cant can you?? You say my words are not in keeping with the authorities are you joking me? It would seam that you are the one who thinks he is representing the church thinking that you know what the authorities would have me say and do cause i and i alone recieve revelation for ME and MY family so go back and read your book of mormon, maybe captain moroni would be a good read for you?? maybe you could raise your flag and stand against evil and evil people cause you may come to this site and hug evil and wish for world peace but you are comming into a time where your wishful thinking will get you conquered and subjected to liberalism,communism, socialism, maybe ruled by antichrist obama and his minions. I am tired of people calling good evil and evil good! oh and by the way i to am also a member of the church and i have an active leadership role and though you might find my comments harsh and not the way you or others would do things, thats the great thing about free agency, when you try and take my agency away you become as satan and arent realy doing anybody any god. my friend you worry about your tone and ill worry about mine. there is in-house apostacy going on in the church if you know your doctrine and church history youll see that something is not right and i blame it on harry reid the baby killer type mormons who say their lds but are sleeping in their beds and holding their hands. some polls taken say that over 40% of the church are considered conservative but do nothing about it and that my friend is where youll find your self unless you draw a line in the sand. Ofcourse i DONT SPEAK for the general authorities and have never said that i did. So dont put words in my mouth and learn a little more then what your learning in sunday school, blind faith is NOT faith.

  8. Chanson, are you just allowing this guy to stick around as a shining example of Mormonism at its finest?

    Because it seems to me this stuff is little better than the crap we were just treated to from poorjason whom you just told-off.

    Note to self – If I ever have my own blog, I shall only allow comments from people with enough basic English skills to properly use paragraphs and punctuation. Nor shall my blog be haven to unhinged headcases who clearly would be better served seeing a shrink than being allowed to play unsupervised on the Internet.

  9. seth r. wow mormonism at its finest? arent you the one who just said you were the shining example of mormonism then you cut down mormons in a generalized statement? You arent realy lds are you? ohh sorry HARRRVARRD i didnt mean to insult your education as the spelling B champion. Your so educated that you plea to chanson to silence me and your so educated that you havent made a single valid point. First you come off as the role model mormon who knows the general authorities so well and then you want to kick real mormons off the site cause you dont know how to handle someone with an education a little better then yours. My education not only comes school but a little thing called common sense. Please feel free to spell check me any time you want atleast your good at spell checking HARRVARRD. kick the real mormon off the site, wow lol that has me laughing…
    ANDREW S, poppcorn does sound good

  10. supervising the internet? hu thats communism.. maybe you should move to iran since they love you so much. not quite communism but youd fit right in. It might be best to start your own blog so everyone you let in can agree with you, it would make you feel brighter since no one would contend with you.

  11. Jason — Since you’ve decided to stick around and have a discussion with us, please be sure you’ve read our commenting policy. In a nutshell, we ask everyone to make a good-faith effort to keep their comments civil and constructive.

  12. chanson–I hear ya you dont want fighting on your blog, the thing that can get a little confusing is ive been civil… I havent started cussing anyone out.. I would hope that you could understand that one of the points im trying to make is that when words of thruth are heard by evil men these men take the words or condemnations to be to hard to bare. they want to hide under a rock so that the savior and your heavenly father wouldnt be able to see them. why… cause their sins are to great and their ashamed. you want me to hug the homosexuals and say its going to be ok…It will chance just like blacks and the priesthood, brothers it will never change and that day will never come. Im not a tree hunger, gay hugger, or apeaser of evil. if i knew most of you i can forsure say we would disagree buy i think we would be friends, but im that friend who’s gonna worry about you and try to help you get your life strait. Love the sinnger HATE the sin, i dont hate any of you gays on this blogg, we could even be friends, and you may even find me attractive…just kidding lol But i will tell you of all the great things you have waiting for you if you can only triumpth over your gay thoughts. If you wanna know why people are leaving the church in great numbers its simple. for liberals its the gays thing and liberalism, for the conservative we see liberalism infiltrating the church and more and more are they moving to the left and away from what early prophets of the church have said. the church is still true but like president taylor said in his “vission of the last days” hr describes a horrible plague that will sweep over the world and people will be dieing off women will eat their young to live and people killing in the streets. brothers do you know where the prophet says this plague will start first….It starts first in THE TEMPLE by UNWORTHY members of the church who shouldnt be their in the first place and if any of you hold alot of the beliefs posted on this blog. you shouldnt be in a temple and our fake mormon who lide and said he was should definately not go. But as weird as this may sound i do in some weird way love all of you even though you make think im a little crazy, but when you study the doctrine,prophecy, anthropology, early church history, and second comming like i do you start to get a different mind set and can see where all this is going and we dont have much time left so thats why i say im done hugging evil people and people need to be called to repentence cause we dont have much time left. and if your interested later i got a GUESS to when it might happen or the around about time.

  13. I think the comments by Jason answer the question of why people leave ‘The Church’. His comments certain clarify for me why I think that all religion is hateful, violent nonsense.

  14. Jason — Don’t worry, I’m not asking you to hug homosexuals (judging from Don’s comment, the homosexuals might object). That’s fine if you want to rebuke us (in a civil manner) — we’re used to it. Just keep in mind that if you say our position is “evil”, then people tend to respond that yours is “hateful” (as opposed to having a reasonable two-way exchange of ideas).

  15. Chanson- i hear ya bud, i first want to say i dont hate homosexuals. love the sinner not the sin. Ive had friends who were gay and if a gay friend came up to me id give him a big hug. But, i have to say that when i call homosexuality evil people get offended and may take my words to be hateful, but the scriptures teach that evil and unrightous people take the truth to be hard to hear and thats why when they try to read the scriptures it makes them feel bad and they push away from the church. Feeling that is kinda like God giving them a marker for when they might be doing wrong or on the wrong path. When i say evil i dont mean that gays are satans spawn..haha Im saying the sin of homosexuality is evil and not of God and if something is not of God it is from the devil. Dont get me wrong i want anyone gay on this site to know that i believe gays are some of the nicest people that ive ever met but im sorry guys your only here for a few years for your probation in this life to prove yourself worthy to return back to God, and homosexuality is next to murder thats why i hate the sin so bad cause i actualy want yall to make it to the next life in good standing.

    Yes i said yall kuri– man do you have something better to do then spell check what i say. If paragraphs are our friends then why have you only written a short sentence?? We can have better issues to talk about then paragraph structure or if we spell check. I dont know about you but i have better things to do then to keep proof reading blog post and looking for errors spelling in blog posts is laughable.

  16. ExMoHoMoDon– if you left the church im sorry you did. I have concerns within the church myself but the important thing for me to do is make sure i dont rationalize everything and give myself reasons or excuses to leave the church. If a person is gay and is offended by the church maybe that person should not blame the church but repent and ask God to take the sin away.

    To EVERYONE about SETH R.– am i the only one who pics up that seth r. is not realy a member of the church and was pretending to be a mormon so he could help lead people astray. He starts off talking like he knows exactly what the authorities want and that he more represented the church but in his next blog post disses mormonism. Im just making the point cause i hope everyone realizes you cant always believe what you hear someone can be pretending to be a mormon and you could believe them but there only intention was to lead you astray its clear to me i hope others recognize it when it happens.

  17. I would be very curious for anyone to tell me where I can find Christ’s words regarding homosexuals.

  18. chris– Im 32 years old

    exmohomodon– without even breaking out the scriptures ill tell you an obvious one. there were male angels who went to visit i believe it was lot in one of the cities of sodom and gamora. When the men of the city saw these strange men enter into his house they tried to make lot throw the men out so they could have their way with them. lot was ashamed of the people and offered up his daughter instead so the men of the city would leave but, they would not except his daughter and still wanted the men sexualy. Shorty after we are told that the men of these cities lusted after strange flesh and the angels told lot that he needed to take his family and leave the city as soon as he could cause God was about to destroy their cities because of their evil ways and for corrupting the ways of God. IN Leviticus It states that if a man lies with a man as he lies with a women he shall surely be put to death. I realy dont have the time to go start getting all kinds of refrences but its there my friend. oh and yea the word sodomy comes from the city sodom that god destroyed they were known to be sodomites or … well i dont have to explain the word to you im sure you know what i mean.

  19. Jason, have you ever wondered why Lot would offer his daughters to an apparently homosexual mob?

  20. chris– Yea ive wondered that and it agrivates me everytime i think about it… I would never offer up my daughter to any mob. The only ideas i can come up with are 1) he knew the men would not want his daughter anyway and he was only useing it to further condemn the people for their ways. 2)He realy would have gave his daughter up but i would say its the first option because he knew they were angels and im sure he wasnt worried about an angels protection but its kinda like abraham, i cant imagine that he was going to sacrifice his son on an alter so i have to just have faith and believe it was a rightous thing he did.. my lack of faith would give me the thought that maybe abraham thought God told him to sacrifice his son but it was satan decieving and when he was about to do it the angel stoped him but thats just one of those things i might never realy know till the afterlife. He was a prophet though so im sure he could have decieved evil intent, just like lot.

  21. ExMoHoMoDon—
    18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
    20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

    i found those in two minutes so if i had time i could write you an essay.

  22. jason, why try to defend the Bible? It’s indefensible. It’s not like Lot was the only sod to offer his daughters to a mob. This old guy from Judges 19 did as well, but it was the concubine who was killed (thanks to a gang rape):

    19:20 And the old man said, Peace be with thee; howsoever let all thy wants lie upon me; only lodge not in the street.
    19:21 So he brought him into his house, and gave provender unto the asses: and they washed their feet, and did eat and drink.
    19:22 Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.
    19:23 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.
    19:24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.
    19:25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.
    19:26 Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man’s house where her lord was, till it was light.
    19:27 And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold.
    19:28 And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.
    19:29 And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.
    19:30 And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: consider of it, take advice, and speak your minds.

    What’s the lesson here? It’s okay for a woman to be gang-raped until she dies so long as a man isn’t touched by another man. Yep, that’s a great moral teaching. The Bible is a reprehensible work of fiction.

  23. Jason,

    I am not ExMoHoMoDon, but I would note that you haven’t found a single word from Jesus Christ about homosexuals. Found a lot of other people or groups’ words though.

  24. andrew s.–most points of the scriptures were said by prophets. Prophets are men who speak for and in behalf of christ and heavenly father. A prophet is someone who has the authority and power to act in the name of God. So bud if you dont believe the words of prophets then you would never believe what i have to say cause im not one. The scriptures say wether the commands are strait from Gods mouth or the mouths of his servants, it is the same. So i guess your arguement would be with wether on not you believe god works through prophets…. Amos 3:7 Surely the lord God would do nothing unless he revealith his secrets unto his servants the prophets. Hope that you understand my point.

  25. re 179

    jason,

    In other words, you openly admit that Jesus DIDN’T say these things. Someone else said them (allegedly) for him. Gotcha.

    I guess the real question would be when prophets speak as prophets and when prophets speak merely as men. Or, what do you think about black people?

  26. chris– I would never compare a human or a humans sexual behavior to an animal. It might work with dogs and cats but we are made in the image of our God and we are a more intelligent makeup of matter. Animals fufill their own roles in this world and their main concern is keeping themselves alive on this earth and im sure they get pleasure from having sex and cant imagine who wouldnt but buddy your alot more important then any animal sent here to sustain your life.

  27. Jason,

    Let me “spell out” my meaning: I haven’t said anything about your spelling or grammar; I don’t really care about them. What I’m asking you to do is break up your posts into paragraphs. That will make them a lot easier to read. As it is, they’re just big giant blobs of text, and I can guarantee you that I’m not the only one who isn’t bothering to read through them because of it.

    If you’re just writing to yourself, keep on doing what you’re doing. If you’re writing to communicate with other people, do them the favor of breaking up your big giant blobs of text into paragraphs.

    Anyway, it’s up to you; I cared just barely enough to write this, but beyond that I don’t give a fuck.

  28. profxm– i hear ya, i believe the bible is the word of god but i could go on and on about how the bible was changed and twisted by the catholic church and all the credes that changed scripture to their benifit. But homosexuality is one people wont be able to change its all over the scriptures wether its blunt statements or symbolim and prophets. Yea i personaly think that it was mistranslated, but maybe not. Thats why i have an open mind about everything, except what i KNOW to be wrong. I sustain president monson but i do not believe he or anyone else is infalible(sp?). I have to go but i will check this later and answer everyones questions and comments. i love deep doctrine and last days stuff and without being pridefull can consider myself a back yard scholor on alot of these topics no im not saying im better then any of you cause im not but i have immersed myself in reading the sign of the times and i see whats about to happen and im very passinate in warning others. Oh and the first thing to leave me after college was my spelling..haha so this site doesnt have a spell check and im usualy in a rush so please excuse my spelling errors cause i usualy dont go back and fix mistake. ill be back later gotta go to the gym and pump a little iron.

  29. jason, I appreciate you stopping by. However, I feel obligated to point out at this point that you’ve set yourself up for easy criticism that makes all of your “bible-based” arguments fundamentally flawed. If the Catholic Church changed scripture to their benefit, then how can you draw on scripture to justify your beliefs? Which were changed and which were not? It seems like you’re selectively choosing passages that you like and ignoring the ones you don’t. For instance, do you cut your sideburns or shave? God said not to, in the chapter just before he says homosexuals should be put to death:

    19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

    Why is Leviticus 20:13 god’s word, but Leviticus 19:27 not? If you’re going to pick and choose, so am I. I say Leviticus 19:27 is god’s word, but 20:13 is not. And you have no way of telling me that I’m wrong because they are both in the bible.

    Do you see the problem with selectively following parts of the bible but not all of it? Either you’re a fundamentalist and it’s all true (in which case, only Orthodox Jews are in line with god’s commands), or it’s all basically make believe and metaphor and you can’t argue any of it is true. You could argue that parts are, but you have no leg to stand on as soon as you admit some of it is not true. So, if you are going to concede that it is okay to cut your sideburns, which I’m assuming you are doing, then you have to concede that there is no reason not to have sex with people of the same sex.

  30. Jason

    Never mind that you did not and could not find a single word said by Jesus (that would be NT not OT), you are not my friend (#171) so don’t use that term with me. I can sit back and watch you prove over and over why people like me think religion is nothing but unadulterated hate. I look forward to your next entry proving my point. I am leaving for the gym–gay guys pump iron too.

  31. Jason, if you use Firefox as your web browser it has an automatic spell-check function.

    And incidentally, my status as an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is far better established, not only on this blog, but on countless other Mormon online communities than yours is.

    Unlike you, people in these communities have actually met me in person and know who I am.

    You are going to have to learn that there is a big difference between being a faithful member of the LDS Church, and simply agreeing with YOUR opinion.

    That is, of course, assuming you are an active member of the Church, and not simply some guy from exmormon.org posing as a faithful Mormon and acting poorly in an attempt to make Mormons look bad. Which frankly, I don’t have much reason to take your word for either.

  32. Andrew S– what do i think of black people? I love them, im from louisiana half my friends are black, my niece and my nephew are mixed and i dont see black. I know what your getting to.. and yes i do believe the mark of cain and the lamanites in the scriptures recieved dark skin. I in NO way believe blacks are evil i just believe their ancestor was cain and ham i believe it was through the flood, yes i do believe that it has something to do with remaining nutral in the pre-existence during the war in heaven.

  33. kuri– Im not short winded and if i write to many words buddy just ecgnore my post. I would be more anoyed by 10 small paragraphs in stead of just laying down what im trying to say, sorry you dont like how i write my paragraphs.

  34. Jason, the Mark of Cain and Curse of Ham are both PROTESTANT doctrines that we borrowed in an attempt to explain why there was a Priesthood ban. I am aware that some LDS leaders, like Bruce R. McConkie were fans of the idea.

    But I wonder, can you cite any LDS leader since the lifting the ban who has ever endorsed either of these doctrines?

  35. profxm– 19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.
    Im sorry but i cannot see how your useing this scripture to justify homosexuality?? Shaving has nothing to do with the commandment not to have sex with other men. And yes the bible does have error in it but thas why joseph smith made corrections to some of the errors in the bible and that was not one of them, and i guess my answer to your question is prophets. If you are or were once a mormon you know that the whole religion is based around actual prophets having the authority and power from God to speak on his behalf. ” Wether it be from God or the voice of his servants it is the same”. amos 3:7- surely the lord god will do nothing unless he reveals his secrets unto his servants the prophets. Servants or prophets of God have been saying that it is wrong since adam. There has never been a prophet that has said homosexuality is ok they have always said it was an abomination in the eyes of God. so i guess it all boils down to wether you believe god ever talked or does talk to prophets. As far as picking and chosing which scriptures to believe, if the bible is confirming it in more then one location and the prophet says it is true then it is true my friend. If you study the decline and destruction of past civilizations you will see that liberalism, homosexuality, amongst many things leads to the destruction of that society. There is also something called the spirit which testifies of truth and the spirit has testified to me of the truth of this topic.

  36. seth r– this may shock you but i do not agree with current lds leadership on the topic… Most of the lds leadership knows this to be true but do not want to offend our fellow brothers and sisters on this topic. They are trying to save souls and they know that if they talk about the seed of cain blacks would not want to join and there would just be contention. If members deny this they deny alot of the leaders of the early lds church. One thing i HATE is when current leaders call doctrine of early leaders OPINION, if everything turns into opinion then why follow now cause it will just turn into opinion 50 years from now. Most believe it they just dont want to offend anyone and either do i.

  37. andrew s– yes i believe the mark of cain will be removed and glorified people will be a glorious white beyond description. I also believe in dna upgrade which when cells upgrade they take on more light and light is not a dark color.

  38. Actually, jason, shaving has everything to do with homosexuality. If shaving is an abomination to god, which Leviticus 19:27 says it is, then you must not shave. Yet, you shave, right? If you shave, you are violating god’s commandments per the bible.

    And if you say it is not a commandment, then I can retort: What makes Leviticus 20:13 a commandment? You have no foundation for claiming one commandment is an actual commandment but another is not…

    Now, your response, that “living prophets” are the key also falls flat. Brigham Young taught that Adam was God, and insisted that it be taught as doctrine in the temple ceremony for a good 30 years. As soon as he kicked the bucket, the leadership dropped the doctrine. And, as you’re presently arguing with Seth and others, Mormon prophets used to argue that blacks were unworthy in the pre-existence, but have since changed their tune (though they haven’t formally denied the doctrine because doing so would admit that they once thought that). Also, the leadership once advocated polygamy and now don’t. All of those are changes in what prophets say. How can you trust “living prophets” if they are inconsistent? So, even by your own standard, you can’t use living prophets to justify your selective reliance on scripture, as living prophets are inconsistent. Hell, 40 years ago Mormon prophets considered homosexuality the equivalent of murder. Today, they call it “same-sex attraction” and just want gays to be celibate, then they can be members in good standing. If that isn’t a change (in our life times) in the views of “living prophets” I don’t know what is.

    And, finally, show me an instance where a currently living prophet has actually made a prophecy and it has come true. They are no more living prophets than I am. Why put your faith in novogenerians in Utah who don’t know you and only care about your money? Put your faith in you and something more reliable, like science.

  39. seth r– i hope you realy are a faithful member of the church. All i can say is i can asure you that i am, i work with the missionaries just about every day, i served a mission in santa cruz bolivia. And this may sound funny to you but i have also recieved visions of being a worrier and i believe i will have a very important role comming up here soon in these last days. I dont think its only a spiritual worrier i feel it will also be some sort of physical war. So seth im not like alot of mormons who sit there practicing blind faith and just relying on what others have told me in sunday school (not saying you are). Some how are membership has become the most close minded people their are. “The glory of God is intelligence” even joseph told brigham if i told you what i know you would leave the church and become apostate.. paraphrasing.. Remember that “evil will only triump when good men do nothing” and sorry to say thats a big chunk of our membership.

  40. profxm– Brigham never taught that adam was god as doctrine he stated it was his opinion. I have a lot of opinion that could be proven correct or false butt when a prophet says he recieved it through revelation from God then it is doctrine. Brigham never said it was doctrine. God also said to chop a part of your penis off but he never said your going to hell for doing it. we still believe that homosexuality is Next to murder. My opinion is that liberals have infiltrated some aspects of the church and the church is slowly moving to the left and we also learn from pres. taylor that a plauge would start that would kill a percentage of the population and i believe well i know that its from unworthy members of the church and you can bet if your gay and your going into a temple i would worry. We are starting to apease evil DEEDS and were starting to call good evil and evil good this is all said in the scriptures and if you study the scriptures you can see a mile ahead and expect all thats happening to happen its all been prophesied. were apeasing liberals, gays, illegal immigrants and their is starting to be a small devide from our liberal members and our more conservative members. Its all been prophesied… I already know the outcome.

  41. well mormonism at its finest it not something most mormons would say but hey most members dont talk like me either so ill give you that seth.

  42. ExMoHoMoDon– ooh, hasty hasty.. If you dont believe the scriptures then you dont believe them, the scriptures were the words of christ through prophets and apostles. If you want christ himself to justify your actions then pray and ask him if what your doing is right. No matter how you justify it FRIEND or should i call you BROTHER which one do you prefer. Oh thanks for clarifying that gays go to the gym i never would have suspected?? Please dont put words into my mouth. Like i said before i believe gays are some of the nicest people i have ever met but if your waiting for justification it will never come. If you dont believe the scriptures then what do you care what the bible has to say theres no need to even worry about it? Have fun at the gym

  43. OK jason… let me get this straight.

    You say you disagree with current LDS leadership.

    And you’re accusing ME of not being a faithful Mormon?

    What about all that stuff about not valuing dead prophets over living ones? Do you really not see the irony here?

    If you ask me, the veneration some certain LDS membership place on folks like Bruce R. McConkie verges on outright idolatry.

    Really jason, the only thing you’ve managed to convince me of in our little exchange so far is that you value your own opinion more than you value the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

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